This Is Me Trying: How can we anxious parents help our anxious kids?

Anxiety is the constant co-pilot of the single parent, so what do we do when our kids get anxious? Lili and Scott dig into how to balance their own worries with the mental health of their children, and try to figure out how to help their kids navigate a world that seems to hell-bent on freaking them out. 

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Transcript

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Hello. Hi, Scott. Today we are going to talk about anxiety in our kids, which has been a huge thing for my son lately. And I'm sure you run into it constantly. We have a very strong anxiety gene in my family. Comes straight from my dad. Right through me, right into them. Yep. What's funny? My son is my son's adopted, but he might as well be my biological anxiety son, because it is the same. Yeah. So, So, yeah, let's get this pod started. Let's do it. I'm Lily, single mom to teen twins father. I'm recording in here, and I'm Scott, single dad to a pre-teen boy. Yeah, it's under the sink. We're two old friends trying to navigate single parenting and spending the whole time thinking, I hope I don't fuck this up. So we're going to be talking about anxiety, but first, let's bring up something else that's also desired inducing, which is, a parenting fail of the week. You have anything? Yeah. And this probably speaks way more to my own childhood pain than anything my kids actually feel, but I. I forgot that I promised my daughter something, and it's, like, not a big deal. But as the, child of divorced parents as well, like, I have a real, sensitivity around not doing the thing that you're going to say, because dads in the 80s who were a single constantly, like, left us on the porch really hating or like, not showing up or not saying that they weren't going to like, I have distinct memories of my dad not showing up when he said he was going to show up. My. So my daughter had asked, I just, you know, recently started a new job and my kids don't really like to get new stuff for school, which is lovely. I mean, I used to like that was the only time I could get things, so like, that's all I wanted. But my daughter, like, after school had started just like, oh, I need new sneakers. I was like, okay, baby, can we wait until I get my first paycheck? I was like, I promise you, I'll get we'll get you new shoes. When? When I get paid. Yeah. And of course I forgot because it's not my shoes. I'm not wearing them every day. She's not like. I mean, they're not, like, shoeless. Like she chooses to wear, like, the same sneakers all the time, which is fine, but she gets expensive, asshole. Guys, they're like $200 shoes. What is with these shoes is like, oh my God, remember my shoes were Payless or Payless didn't even exist back then. It was like they did pay, I believe me, because I shot there, I was it I mean, I I'm, I mean, this is like in the dawn of time, but like, I remember they were so cheap, like my they were like what? I remember wanting Reeboks. And that was like a big deal. And they were $80. And like, I remember not one time I was allowed to get one pair of Reeboks and it was great, but every couple of months I'd say like six months or so, I'm spending$250 on a pair of hookers or whatever the thing is that they want at the time. Luckily, my son is into vans, which they're still pretty cheap, I know. Thank God for those. I was like, okay, I just need a breather. Like, let me get paid and we'll do it. And the other day she was sitting on the couch like putting on her shoes, getting ready for school. She's like, oh, everyone was talked a whole through. That's one like a sad person. Can I have some more Hokies? It was, and I like I felt horrible because I had forgotten and she was like, sweet girl. That she is, is being thoughtful and not bringing up like, hey, I want to buy another pair of expensive shoes. Did you get that money? And I have like, I've been paid several times since this conversation and I felt so awful for having promised her something and completely like forgetting, forgetting and breaking that promise. And I it made me feel really, really bad. So. Parenting fail. Look, I'm so my parenting fail. Well, wasn't this week, but was exactly the same thing, except worse. So this is how I make you feel better. Okay. Is that you just forgot some sneakers. We all forget that stuff half the time. They're promises that that you give to get to buy yourself some time. It's like, you know. And I would fully expect my son to then come back to me and remind me, like I should have done it every day. Like it's today. Every day. It's like. Exactly. You want that? Like my son would not be quiet about that. I'd like, wake up with his, computer in front of my face with a picture of it on the computer, because when he wants Legos, it's all he does. He's just. He's like, hey, dad, come take a look at this fun video and look at. It's just the Amazon link to the Lego set. He wants. Well, this is why I feel even worse because she's such a kind. You're so good. She doesn't go back on the other route. No, you are free. You are 100% forgiven. That is something you want. I'm going to I. My job in this podcast is to remind you what an amazing mom you are by showing what a crap that I am. So I, he had a special thing at school where all the parents at the end of the year would come in and they'd. It was called Paper Plane Day. And you spend all day, you know, all week making these paper planes. He takes the paper planes into school, and then you show up, all the parents show up at, like, you know, 2:00 at school. And I guess you just throw the paper planes around, okay. And so, you know, we all we work on the paper planes all week. We put it all together, and then it's time to go. And he goes to school, to go do the paper plane thing. And I had this fire happen with work. And so I'm, like, paying attention to that. And then next thing I know, I hear a door slam and he's home from school and he just, you know, goes right into his room and slams the door and, and I immediately I the worst part, I say immediately, the worst part is I didn't know why he didn't know why I why is he so shitty that I know I couldn't remember. Yes. I just had forgotten it completely. And I open the door and I'm like, what's going on? He, like, does a little thing where he slams the door again as I open it. So I always have to watch out for my fingers. And then finally I open the door and I'm like, what's going on? He said. Every other parent was there except you. You were the you were the only parent not there. And I and then I was like, oh crap, it was paper plane day. What did you say? Like, well, it's because I don't let you go. It's like, I don't know. I did not try to be glib about it. I felt so horrible. I immediately was just because we, you know, we had worked on these paper planes to get all I knew about all of that, like, it's not like some, like, little thing on the calendar that, you know, you put on there and it's like you don't think about it because you're involved in it there. It was so indefensible. And I just felt so horrible. But it's like so difficult to keep all these things in your head. It's like, you know, you got to worry about work. You got to worry about, you know, your ex, you got a warning about what's for dinner and all this stuff. And that thing just slipped my mind. And yeah, the worst part about it wasn't that it was that I'd forgotten. The worst part about it was I was the only one who had forgotten and would have been really nice of somebody else, not one other fricken parent. I mean, I just, I just wanted to call the other parents and be like, guys, come on, we should have a raffle where somebody just has to stay home just to make up for that one idiot like myself. Well, also. Hey, how nice that all those parents can come to school at 2:00. I live in a I live in a town with a lot of stay at home moms. Well, the, you know, you're always trying to provide tips for everybody, so I'll just give you one. Nothing in my life gets remembered unless it's in my calendar. And I tell this everybody no. Like I tell it to my kids, I tell it to my ex. Like you're not going to remember. Put it in your fucking calendar. Like, yeah, you're right, I've got a good dentist appointment that I'm not even taking my daughter to on Friday that I sent in in calendar invite to her and her dad to remember because it's just not going to happen. So like, obviously you're forgiven for forgetting. It's just like, sucks. But man, I'm like, can't tell you that. He won't be talking about this on his own podcast 40 years from now about how is it? So, brings it up, he brings it up all the time and in such a, like, manipulative way. It's not manipulative. Okay. And I and I, it's used to like get really I would say things like that about like kids too is like, this is manipulative. This is minute. It's just like he doesn't know what to do with those feelings. The key has no idea. And still my own father will bring things up to me like that. So it's like a personality type that can hangs on to those things. And like that emotion is always so fresh that it keeps growing. Like my dad will tell me all of the time, remember that time that I took you on that trip when you were 14 and you were awful? I'm like, yes, dad, I'm really sorry. I was a teenager then. I hope you can forgive me. Like you should see some people. We wonder why we're talking about anxiety today. So that. I mean, it's a nice segue. I guess, into the anxiety in our children, considering we just talked about how I cause anxiety in my child. My son's in therapy. I don't know if your kids went through therapy at all. They're not. And I've asked them through the years, especially when I've noticed stages. And then I will start this and say they're not. It took me nearly 40 years to get any kind of therapy for my anxiety, because it didn't feel like pathological. It just felt like my brain was trying to think of everything and protect me, which is a thing that I think in anxiety people generally have, is like, doesn't necessarily feel like anything wrong. It just feels like you can't handle everything. And there's so many things that you need to be handling all of the time. So they're not in therapy. But I'm glad you have your son in therapy, because the thing that worked for me, therapy, it didn't think it worked for you last year was getting this year you finally got into therapy. Well, and I'm laughing at you. I just started therapy for the first time, like, well, last year I started it. And then, unfortunately, it was someone who didn't quite work out, because the reason why I went with her was that she said that I could pay her in installments, and I said, oh, that's great, let's do that. And, that's not a good reason to go with a therapist is because of the payment plan. It's not great. But also an important thing. Like, it honestly made me it made me too, because, I mean, you know, when it's going through so many financial issues, you go through the divorce. That bit of generosity touched me so much. You know, most people aren't like, this is their business, which I understand, but also the there's no like, therapy late. Like, I was like, are you sure we need every week? Could we do like, every other or once a month? And she was like, yeah, that's not how this works. Which I feel like it maybe could be how it works. And I was doing it every month with her. Yeah. With, with the first one I would say did not. It just didn't work at all. Yeah, partially. But it's also because your therapist is if it doesn't fit, you got to dump it and find the one who does as soon as possible. It's not just about a good therapist. It's about who is someone who communicates in a way that you respond to because it if if you don't feel like you're responding well with them or you know, you don't listen like this. For the first woman I was dealing with, you know, she she the way she would approach things was just not a way that I would respond to it. So it just became a time to talk. You know, it's hard for a person with anxiety, a psychiatrist, because I know it's so difficult. Oh, my God, it's it's I just ghosted her and I felt awful. Did you know I ended up so I ended up stopping seeing my therapist because I left a job that was causing me a great deal of anxiety. And she, you know, she helped me to come to that conclusion. But then when I didn't have a job anymore, it was hard to pay for therapy. And it took me a long time to quit, even though she knew what was going on. And I'm sure she would have been understanding much sooner than it took me to do. But it's not like the expense is significant consideration completely. I would absolutely put my kids in therapy now at I own it, not at my at the expense of my own therapy so that they could do it because all three of us, that's $3,000 a month. I know, it's crazy. I mean, thank God my insurance can cover my therapy. And which is that's not I don't it's it's a very special circumstance that won't last forever. But, it's been life changing for me as you mentioned before. Like, I might have ADHD, and it's kind of like taking me through this late life later in life. Yeah. Diagnosis, which has been a huge change in help for me. But my son hurt his therapist doesn't take insurance. Yeah. So you know I'm paying that. So we only we do it once a month now with him rather than every other week, which is what we were doing. But it was the first bit of advice that my, a good friend of mine who had gone through, divorce and was a, work with children. And the first bad advice, she's like, get him into therapy because he the one thing that often happens is divorce is they they feel like they can't be completely honest with either parent because, you know, they their experience is so different from either parent. They, they don't know where they are. They need somebody that's theirs that they can talk to. And they what's interesting too, like, it not only is like, is it untruthful or not truthful or like how I, you know, wanting to protect your emotions, but kids have different relationships with each of their parents and they are different with each of them. And like as a child of divorce, I immediately am tense around my mother, who was the primary custodian when I when we were kids, like we saw my dad on the weekends, but when I was with him, I was totally comfortable and relaxed and felt like myself, and I was yeah, yeah, yeah. When I was with her. Mom, I hope you're not listening. I get very anxious and uptight, and there was a lot of, like, probably where, like one of the the first senses of, anxiety that I had was I felt responsible for her well-being. Nobody asked me to, but, like, when I was eight, they got divorced or they separated when I was eight. Divorced by the time I was ten or 9 or 10. And I felt very much responsible for her. And that was something that we were actively trying to parent against, like as, as as we were splitting up, like, we will handle this. The emotions that your dad and I have, like we completely did the opposite of what my parents did because I never wanted them to feel like they were responsible for me. That really is amazing. I wouldn't be surprised as a non-medical professional. And then if you look at their route, a lot of this anxiety that children of, of divorce especially have is this sense of it's now my job to make my parents feel better. Yeah. Because and I bet you that happens with single parents in general, whether you're divorced or not, because it's like there's nobody to take the load off. It's just them. And then especially depending on the kind of kid that there is, like, my daughter is like me. And if, if we if I had any inkling of like need, she would try to fulfill it. And my son is not that way. His son does not give a f. He's a very loving and empathetic person. However, he does not feel the need to take care of me or his dad. And I'm glad for that. That's good. I think it is good. It's really, really good. But, you know, my daughter is the one that I was. She's a caretaker. And like, I just don't want her to ever feel like she has to take care of me because she has, like, her anxiety. But both of my kids have anxiety and I mean, not formally diagnosed, but having been through anxiety, literally seeing the genetic delivery system like from my dad and like probably from his mom to my sister and I both we, you know, we there's we each have different expressions of the anxiety. My dad and mine are very, very similar. And something we actually bond over because I think until I talk to him about anxiety and made fun of him, which is our life, like ours too, I think it still is just something that made him feel bad, like he has been thinking he's that hypochondria which is like a, you know, particular subset of anxiety. And so, like if a friend of his had a stroke, which happened one time and like I talk to him afterwards, he's talking to me about how she was in the hospital sick. So how's your stroke feeling? And like, I couldn't I know him, I know him well enough to know, like, if that happened to somebody else is probably happening to me and I just don't know it. And that's his anxiety, which is very similar to mine. And my son had a very he had a similar thing, where when he was around, I don't know, middle school, he suddenly, would, you know, his stomach would hurt and he'd start looking at the symptoms online. And he had cancer. And like that. So he has a similar kind of anxiety that it's not necessarily instigated by anything external, but it's all self-directed. And my daughter's is more worried, like she's, you know, constantly worried about if the train is late, if she misses this for school, if like, it's a it's a kind of a low level general anxiety about everything. So it's, you know, it's I, I'm almost glad that I know that I have it. I know that my dad has it. And in dealing with them with it, it's really easy. And I think more they deal with it better than I ever did because it's acknowledge. And then yeah, I, you know, I say to them like, this is what the anxiety is and this is where, you know, here's things that we can try and like, you know, and I actively like therapy them through it because, you know, my, my therapist gave me tools to use when mine was out of control. I feel powerless a lot of times. So my son, my son has panic attacks and, and he can't breathe and like, it's only happened, it's happened a couple of times. And then a few times I think it he's now afraid of feeling that. And so even if he doesn't quite get there, it turns into that. Like I watch him work himself up into it. And so it's like, you know, part of me is like, how do we get him to stop, you know, working himself into it? Yeah. But the powerlessness I feel when he's going through something like that, and all I can do is sit next to him, put an arm around him and, like, you know, try to help him breathe and get him to the point where he can kind of get everything under control. And it's only happened maybe, maybe 3 or 4 times. But every time it's happened because of me. It's not that the panic attacks happened because of you. Because of me. And like, they're not about the world. They're about, you know, the first time was because he likes to go into his room and and kind of like, go be by himself. And that's how he kind of self-soothe. And he ran into his room once, and this is like 4 or 5 years ago. And he closes the door. And then I went to go open the door and be like, hey, how you doing? He said, don't come any slammed the door on my fingers. And it was just like, oh, I mean, it really hurt. And so and you know, and it was over something that was it was not like he was like having a little tantrum. And so I then went in and I smacked him on the shoulder. I was just like, smack him on the shoulder because my my hand hurt it like broke this rule in his, like I just did something. Yeah. And he had this attack and I had to like, you know, obviously calm it right down and soothing and everything like that. He has now brought that up. I would say this once a week for the past four years. Yeah. Like talk about the thing that he is going to, you know, bring up in therapy when he's 60. It's going to be at I will say that that might be some self-soothing to like when you, one of the things that I do with anxiety is like, repeat bad situations over and over and over in my brain. I will watch, okay. You know, I will walk down the street and I'll hear somebody laughing and I assume they're laughing at me, which in my right mind I know is probably not the case. Or I have an interaction with somebody like somebody at the grocery store, did something messed up and like rolled across your foot and then were jerks about it. And then I will replay that incident over and over and over in my brain. And it's like your brain is just trying to process the intensity of like the overreaction of, feeling that you're that I, that I had there. So it could be that like, it could be like heat that his brain is still trying to work through it. And it's not to make you feel terrible. And you're also safe. Like that was when I when we were talking about that. Like that was one of the things like the I also had panic attacks, knock on wood. It's been a while since I had the last one, but the last one I remember was just at the start of the pandemic, and I'd been good for years, like, therapy had really worked. And I don't want to tell you to tell your son this, but the thing that happened to me in my panic attacks, I finally was like, all right, well, if I'm going to die, just go ahead. This is a heart attack thing. I'm not going to tell my son that you can't. You should deal with the death feeling. Just go with that death feeling, I would say was like, well, right, just a heart attack. My worrying about it, it's not going to stop it. So let's see. But one of the things that would always soothe me was my ex psyche. You know, we were very good in traumatic situations together or like, like in all of the places that we should have been bad, we were good and where we should have been good. We were match like we were. Oh it's not. I'm sorry. No, it's fine. It's fine to laugh at because it's just ridiculous. But, you know, if I was having a panic attack, he could help me. And like, he was physically grounding and, like, there's a lot of things that, just his physical presence helped me with. And that was something that, that now, like, I'm luckily I panic attacks have not happened frequently in the past 4 or 5 years and all, but it is something that I think about, like, what am I going to do if I have more and I don't have him to like, you know, be with me or like, hold my hands or remind me like, okay, you're supposed to think about your feet and are your feet touching the ground, like all of the things that the therapist told me that I would tell him, that he would reflect back to me when I was in the middle of it, or like, okay, you need to go into the room. We're going to turn on the air conditioner and make it really like whatever the things are, whatever the things are that he would do and that's, that's and it's not something I actively miss, but it's it reminded me, like when you went in there and soothe your son, that that's something that is missing. Should it happen again as a single person, it's so it's it is the hardest thing when you're single. And by yourself, I mean, I went through some stuff last year where it was just like anxiety on top of anxiety, on top of anxiety, and you're just by yourself in your bed and you know, and your your kid is you don't want them to help you. They can't help you because that's not their job. As we just said, they should not be. You know, they should not be in charge of your well-being. So you just they're gutting it out by yourself, biting your lip like trying to get through this thing. And you know, you don't have somebody who can help you, and you just have to get to the other side, and then you got to go and, you know, I it always makes me think of, a movie that I don't I have some problems with the movie, but love actually, there's that scene in love actually. And when, like, any problems with it, it's perfect. And I love it. You go on. God, it has some great vignettes, but that one scene to me is being a single parent. That one scene where Emma Thompson opens up the CD and realizes that the jewelry that was bought for, you know, that she had seen the receipt for or found she found the jewelry, was not for her. Makes me cringe or hevery time. So her whole life has now crumbling, and then she has to put on that face and go back out and, and, you know, be a mom for Christmas. Right? And to me, that is that single parenting like in a nutshell, it's that you have that overwhelming sadness, depression, anxiety, whatever it is, you know, that that washes over you. You have to then turn around and go make breakfast, or you have to turn around and go help kids with their homework or whatever it is. I remember last year, like being like, this is something that, you know, married couples get to tag in like a wrestling match, and I need to go into the other room and deal with my own crap. And you go and you entertain the kids, or help with homework or whatever, you know, high five, off you go. And instead I'm like, in my bedroom, not wanting to get out of bed, being like, it doesn't matter. I don't have a choice here. Like I had. I don't want him to see, you know, a tear in my eye. I don't want him to hear a quiver in my voice like I need to, like somehow bottle is down and then go and be. It's the scene in the bedroom that really is the one for me where, like, she goes in there and she like, let me go. Like, you know, she absence herself a moment. Not that I know every line, but she doesn't. She goes into the bedroom and like, she lets herself cry a tiny, tiny bit and like, then, like, straightens her clothes and fixes the the the bedspread and then, like, use literally see her suck it up and go out there. And I'm not always great at that. And I don't necessarily think that that's the best thing to do to not let your kids see your emotions. But in a case like that, where it's like if they knew what was going on right now, it ruins something for them. Absolutely. Yeah. Like totally the the right thing to do. I mean, it's so hard just being a, an adult like, let alone a single parent. I know I love how we've widened this, so let's talk about being human beings in this world where we've got like they're I'm 48 years old and only I think this year, like, forget about pandemic, forget about divorce. But this year for some reason, it's been incredibly evident that it sucks being the adult. It's so bad. It's why you, you know, it's what I wait as I was like thinking about whether to get a divorce or not because you're like, no matter how bad it may get in certain places, there is still that phone call you can make and that, you know, the arm that you can snuggle into or that you know it's that person you can hide behind when you need to hide behind them. Like that's so useful. It is. And like, you know what we're talking about with the kids, like in their anxiety. Like they react differently to different parents and like sometimes it's better with one parent or the other or like, I mean, sure, for me, I think my kids feel comfortable expressing their anxiety to me or with me because they know that I feel the same. And with their dad, like, you know, my my daughter tries to control him and like he stresses her out and he's like is so like there's a reason we really get there. And it's because where I'm uptight, he's very chill and that stresses her up. Like when he's chill about something that she needs him to be uptight about, like being on time or like doing the thing that he said he was going to do. There's a benefit in that, like to some ness or like being even being able to like take both sides of your parents, like in the way that they complement each other as the kid and like, use them both at the same time because it's helpful. Yeah, yeah, I so I also find it really annoying what you just told me about, like growing up, how you were like, you are more anxious around your mom, even though your dad was the one who was probably, you know, not coming through quite as often. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And yet you're not. But there's no expectation around him. It's hard to disappoint somebody who's disappointed you. Oh, that's not true. I disappointed him. You're right, I like, I like I like to make blanket statements that of which I know nothing about. The thing I keep reminding myself. And this is something that I think about all the time. Because when your kids have anxiety, at least for me, the thing I think immediately is, yeah, what am I doing to this kid? And with me? Like, my son's adopted, I, you know, I was there at birth when he was born, which is amazing. So like, he's, you know, it's been, you know, a journey from the beginning. But there is still occasionally when something like a big divorce happens or something like that, that pops into my head where I'm like, you know, he could have had a different dad and that my and no. And I'm like, that dad maybe wouldn't have done this or that. Dad maybe wouldn't have gotten divorced. Or maybe, you know, you know, when you're a biological kid, you're stuck with this world. This was the only thing that you were going to get. But with him, his his birth mother picked us and so, you know, and, and I do very much feel like I have a responsibility to his birth mother, because she did pick us and, and and, you know, this is where we're parents and caretakers at the same time. And then I think, well, my parents were together up until when my father, you know, passed this year like they were together 50 odd years. And I had, as anxious as the next person like I am, have just as many issues as I've struggled with just as many things as anybody else as you have. Like, everybody has a hole in their heart somewhere. Everybody has something they're dealing with. And we feel when we're messing up or like we're dealing with our, you know, we see anxiety in our kids who like, well, if we're messing up what would have been a perfect kid. Oh, okay. Stop, stop. I want to tell you. Oh, you're talking about anxiety as if it's something you can cause. And that is where you're totally fucking wrong. Like, this is just a way your brain is made like. And when you think about it as like cavemen, and you think that there is some benefit to some cavemen ages and ages ago that were who were hypersensitive and they were on alert all the time, and their brains kept to the cavemen a lot like I tend to try to think about it that way. It's like my hyper vigilance, which cause, you know, is closely related to anxiety and ADHD, by the way, which I'm sure you know, it is it's not something that I could have had an absolutely perfect life, perfect childhood with parents who never got divorced. They're exactly who I need. And I would still have anxiety. It's just my brain chemistry. And that's it. Like, you would never see that about depression. Like if your son was depressed and there was nothing you could do to fix it, you would never be like, oh, I guess I really made him sad. You would think of it as this is a brain chemistry issue that that we need to help. And I think that's one of the things with anxiety that I actually get really angry about, obviously, like I got very emotional when I just reacted to that, but it feels to a lot of other people outside. It does. It's not taken as seriously as something like depression is, even though it's something that, you know, it has such a huge emotional impact on people. But it also feels like it's the kind of thing that people want you to get control of, you know, like, yeah, oh, why are you worried? Like, because the, the idea of worry and anxiety are so closely related in our, and our lexicon. It does a huge disservice to people who have anxiety, because it's not that I'm just worried. And if I just didn't worry so much, my anxiety would go away. It's that my brain is wired differently. End of story. Which then says that just like with depression, there's coping mechanisms not, you know, fixing mechanisms. It's not something you're looking to fix. It's looking to cope with. Yeah. And and that's you know, that's been the hardest thing for me dealing with my son where it's just like I want to fix it, you know, I want it to be better and gone. And and I feel guilt when it happens. And I know I shouldn't, but I still do. And, and, and I just want to fix it and not fix his brain. I'm not going to fix it. I know, I know, but it's like it's there's knowing something and feeling something, and those are two different things. I know it, but I don't always feel it. And I think part of it is because I have anxiety myself and some that can feed into it. But part of it is also and this is probably me. And so I'm not speaking for anybody else when I say that. But when you get divorced, especially when you're when, like I did, who instigated it? There's guilt around that. And sometimes when you feel that guilt, you look around for manifestations of that guilt, for things that will support that guilt and make you think like, oh, well, I was right, you know, to feel guilty and seeing, like, what it's done to my child. Exactly. I look at my son and I'm like, oh, well, this, you know, backs up the guilt I feel like. And so, well, then just know you're being stupid because that I know that I know that even though I know if we had stayed together, it would be exponentially worse. And I know that as a fact. Yeah. So I know all of that. So why don't you try to hang on to that bit? Because that's the thing I think about, too. Like, you know, there's obviously times when I think that it would have just been easier if I just sucked it up and stayed in that marriage that was making me miserable, or like when we were cyclically miserable and the in between cycles. But I know for a fact that if we had stayed together and my kids, as they grew up, had to hear us fighting, and we thought it, we didn't think we were being clever, but like, we'd go into the bedroom and you hear just they would hear, you know, they hear everything here, everything. And you know, everything there. No secret of relief that I think my kids have for never, ever having to hear those fights. Ever since the time they were like 12, 13 years old is, I think, immeasurable. Like I and I think that I would if I were you I that's how I would try to think about it. Like think about all the things you spared him. Yeah. I mean, I mean, it sounds like your anxiety is working on you to like. And it's like putting it on your kid, like, oh, my anxiety is confirming that I fucked him up. Like, my anxiety is confirming that I ruined my marriage. Like, all of those things are problems keep us in secure. And this is why I. And this is why I'm in therapy. But what's helping me is one you know, being in a relationship for the past year has really helped me. Like, I don't think as we kind of spoke before, it's not you don't get into a new relationship to solve your problems like that's, but what it has of these done is given me somebody who I care about to do better, who's also a single parent, who will see it from a third party perspective and be like, all right, you're being crazy. And you know, that is helpful. Like, I don't have the instinct to have anybody else help me feel anything or fix anything. Even if I were in a new relationship, maybe it would be nice, but it wouldn't be something that I that I saw in then. But the thing that actually helps me is physically exercising helps your brain. And I am not an exercise person, but thinking, I mean, setting a plan for yourself. And I think this is probably true for our kids too. It's like, but it's, you know, it's different. Like you have to figure out what works for them. But for me, like, I, I quit the job that was making me crazy because I had was having panic attacks every day going into the subway. And I started and, you know, my I'm walking every mile of the city that I could. And I started therapy and like those things together. And my next option was like, if this isn't going to work, I'm going to medicate. And like, I'm not going to feel bad about it because I felt very guilty around needing to call it therapists and potentially needing medication. This is just what happens in anxiety brains. Maybe it happens in depression, brains and other things too. But for me it was just like I felt weak needing help. I think that is pretty common. I, I won't make a generational, but I'm making it generational. Our generation, we are you know, we were taught to to, you know, suck it up and rub some dirt in it. And the benefit like to that, to your point, I think you're totally right. The benefit that your son has is that you know, this, that you have anxiety and that you are capable of giving him the tools and resources to make him feel better, like me. And like it's not going to be instant and it's not going to make his anxiety go away. But if you give him the tools because you had it, and you know intimately how it feels, he's going to be so much better than he would if he had. Who who knows what other parents I feel feel terrible that you feel that way about like, the adoption. I totally get it like that. It's it's a rational, 100% rational. It is. And I, to to the point where I'm pronouncing it irrational, which is. And how you pronounce it. That's how irrational it is, but actually irrational, you know. But it's one of those things where I initially I was afraid to admit that I felt that way because it just felt so weird. But, as I started admitting it's a way to like, it's a way to lance a wound that if I admit it and it feels, you realize how ridiculous it is, like we can then talk about it and I can get a reactions from people being like, definitely. And I think learning with an anxious brain these my form of anxiety, being able to admit the crazy thoughts I have absolutely everyone else put into perspective for me. Not that they're crazy, but that they are. You know that they are things that I might be creating. Yeah, and that has been helpful. I think that's the thing about therapy. Like, not necessarily that like my therapist told me to like name the parts of my body that felt okay, like in the moment that I was like, I don't think it's necessarily that that helps me. And the thing that I think helps me most of all is exactly what you said is like, once you name the fear, you completely neuter it. So when I am having a heart attack, I will tell somebody I'm having a heart attack right now. I feel bad and they're like, okay, you, but you're fine. I think you and I have the same sense of humor. I would do the same thing. Or like, my brain tumor is acting up, like, whatever it is, it's making fun of. It actually is a fake. Like, I don't actually take this. It feels terrible and it's very, very serious in the moment. But I try to take it too seriously because humor, like, naming the thing, like, I don't know why. It's like slaying a monster, like you said, is when you when you call the thing into existence and it can show that it in actuality doesn't exist. It's an amazingly powerful school. And I think that if you do that with your kid, like, that's great. Like, tell me what's wrong, nothing is going to help your anxiety better than be able to name it with me. And we can kind of put it into perspective. So how do we get to that point? And so that's the bit I'm trying to work on the most is like how do we put not to market, not, minimize it, but just let's just name it. And you know, what are you anxious about? What are you really anxious about? Because you will often say it's something that has nothing to do with what he's actually anxious about. Like he will deflect all the time and, you know, and, and, you know, it's not that because the same thing would have happened a week before. He didn't care. I know you're I can see on your face you're like, you are making assumptions, right? And you are making assumptions. And sometimes it's fine. And like I never think about like, the thing that's really making me anxious, like is the panic is. Or when it's panic attacks, particularly the panic is so immediate and not necessarily triggered by anything that has anything to do with anything else, like I was having. I mean, I've lived in New York City for almost 25 years, and I would take the subway every single day. And suddenly I started having panic attacks because people were too close to me, or the train was stopping between stations. And like, this is something that I had been dealing with for over 20 years, and it shouldn't have been something that created anxiety and panic in me. But like, that is the thing that was causing it. Like my brain had latched on to something and then catastrophize and then created this like cascade. So was I stressed out that my mother in law had cancer and that meant like my my ex was going down to see her and I was alone. Single parenting with a very demanding full time job. And the job was stressful. And I didn't like, like all of those things contributed to angst and also like, hormonal shifts like that is something to think about too, that all of those factors together, they're not, might not be something that he's really worried about. It could just be a lot of factors together that are contributing to the feeling. Yeah. Now that's I mean, that's a really good point. It's just like, you know, he will often latch onto the thing that's probably he probably feels like he has the most control over. So he will he will latch on to you didn't wash your hands when you went to the bathroom. Or I didn't hear it. And that's why. Yeah. About me. And that's why I'm anxious right now. It's. You got to go in and wash your hands, and then I won't be anxious anymore. And I'm like, I don't think that's the main reason he's anxious. I think it's a it's the thing that he can control, maybe out of all the and maybe that does make him anxious. But I also sometimes think it's, it's the thing that he can exert some control over and he can exert control over so many other things. Yeah. And so you, you know, it's tied to anxiety for sure. I mean, for sure is the watchword. Like and I think control especially for kids of you know, with especially kids of divorce or and you know, you know, you have no control because if you had control your parents would still be together. Yeah. So you got no control. And so how do you exert all of these, this control. And I found that what I do is and I don't know if this is right or not, but, you know, he has certain rules that he would like me to follow. And so I follow them. And these are like, you know, just simple things of like, you know, we're I didn't close the door to the bathroom all the time because it's just the two of us. But he's like, you need to close the door to the bathroom. We need you to close the door. And so I close the door to the bathroom. And so he asks for something, and he gets it. Yeah. My my son wanted us to store the glasses upside down because we didn't know if spiders were getting in the in the glasses while they were in the cabinet. And it's like, okay, I'll start them upside down. It doesn't matter. He doesn't sleep in his bed like they're bunk beds. Because we live in New York City and it's two bedroom apartment and it's very expensive. But he doesn't see that as he slept in the top bunk and he doesn't sleep, that he hasn't slept there, like, in a year and a half or two. And it's because of spiders and, like, okay, you can sleep on the couch like it doesn't like he picks up his clothes. Like, there's definitely things that I agree that if I mean and this may not be therapeutic advisor helpful, but remember, Scott and I aren't doctors. We're just sharing. By the way, 900% not doctors. We are just sharing our own experience. It might not be what you know, somebody recommends, but like, if it makes him feel better and it alleviates that anxiety like I know and over like he had series like arachnophobia when it's like almost jumped out of the car at one time because there was a spider in the car like it was, you know, you saying like it's just a little spider. There's nothing it could does. It means nothing like it means nothing. So I know he's gotten better over time. I know he's dealt with this fear way better over time. But it's like if he says like an the bed is dusty and it's making me sneeze, but it really means like. And there were spiders up there that he had killed, so I don't care like no. And it's okay. And it's I mean, personally, like my anxiety about the subway was really high and when I after the pandemic when people were like, okay, time to start coming back into the office, I was like, fuck, I cannot get on a train again because that means like, oh, I know. So what I do, I walk two and a half miles in the morning so that I can walk to the ferry, get on the ferry and then walk the rest of it. My anxiety is different when I'm coming home. I can get on the subway when I'm coming home, but like you accommodate things that are within your control. There's nothing wrong with a coping mechanism like I do. And what's interesting, I find, is like, once again, generationally, like my mom does not understand why I, you know, allow some of my son's cooking coping mechanisms because to her mind, I mean, she's from the mountains of Virginia, like their mind is to, you know, get it, get it done. Yeah. And, in a very nice. Yeah. This year we so she's going to listen to this. She's going to be so mad at me. Yeah. It's just like a suck it up. Yes. It's like, but it's, you know, it's but it's like saying, hey, why can't you control yourself? And I'm like, well, this is him controlling himself. Yeah. Like this is sucking it up in his way. Yeah. You know, you give in a little bit so that you can move forward. And so I, I have no problem with some of these. There are certain coping mechanisms where it's like, you know, he was sucking on his fingers and we had to stop that. And like certain things where you had to figure out how you can, you know, redirect the coping mechanism to something that you can do more long term in this world. But there's I mean, like, there is it coming out of the little curly bits of your hair at the top of your head because he couldn't find a good woman? You can get it. It's funny you say you have anxiety. I'm like, I have anxiety. And I'm like, I'm trying to think of the one person I know who doesn't, cannot think of anyone who doesn't have some level of anxiety. It's just. Yeah, like you said, it's this human thing. And sometimes I think the difference is the amount your admit to yourself, you have it more than you know. Do you have it or not? And, and some people, I think, are better at compartmentalizing than others. Well, I only know people who are related to me that have it. And I feel like I've made friends with people who don't like my entire world is like, surround them with people who don't have anxiety, which, yeah, I don't know why. Like, I didn't even think of that until, like, I was just trying to think of a friend who might have anxiety. I attract people with anxiety, maybe as they answer, I. I'm just related to them through back. But and you know, I'm not I like I would say I would probably not equate my anxiety with your anxiety. I think, what I deal with, I deal with self flagellation a lot more than I deal with anxiety and I, I, I deal with guilt more than I do. I mean, I am I am the most Jewish, non-Jewish person you will ever meet. Everyone thinks I'm Jewish. I just have this, like aura of Judaism. I walk through the park and those Hasidic Jews always come up to me going, You're Jewish. Are you? Like I do? Are you Jewish? Are you Jewish? And then be like, no. They're like, no, but are you Jewish? Like they'll follow, what am I to know? Way. Yeah. This is like somebody got scared during the Holocaust and changed it on Ellis Island. Somebody did something right. Oh, absolutely. And so I know, I mean, my accent just went all over the place there, but I know that somewhere in my past there, there is definitely Judaism. But like, I have that that, that self-flagellation and the guilt is, is probably where mine comes from. But I guess the reason I say that is not so much to like, you know, be like, hey, everybody's clinically anxious. I think it's just more like everybody needs coping mechanisms and there's nothing wrong or, or odd about coming up with a coping mechanism that gets you through something difficult. I mean, totally. And if your kid has it, it doesn't mean that they are doing something that needs to be completely, you know, you know, I ironed out of them well, that I think that's the thing to like keep in mind is like, does your child's or your own coping mechanism then become the unhealthy thing, like when you said, the thing about the hand-washing, I'm like, ooh, that's a little bit OCD too. Like, I mean, again, not a doctor not knowing, not that indexing your kid, but as somebody with anxiety who knows very much about medical situations because of my own anxiety, that I think that that's the thing to keep in mind is like, does the coping mechanism then become the unhealthy thing? And if it's like, for me, yeah, yeah. You know, I'm, I'm walking, you know, six miles a day. I'm okay with it. Nothing unhealthy about that. Well, I would say with with my son like he he doesn't wash his hands 30 times. He just wants me to wash my hands. So it's not about then. It's not about this kind of OCD. Me just thinking like a little bit. Oh, okay. No, no, it's just he's worried about you. You are the thing that's providing safety and care. And if you don't wash your hands and you get sick, that means a lot to him. I mean, I think you are right. I think I get no leeway. Like, yeah, you are the rock and anything totally shifts that rock left or right that probably that causes more anxiety than anything else in the world. I guess I just have you have to give yourself grace, that it's an education and, you're just doing your best. Well, you I hope you don't fuck it up, Scott. Well, why don't we, why don't we end it on, on that, station ID, apparently, that we just did. It's just so act in so many situations. Why you didn't. I'm very proud of the title of this. Because it is. Yeah, it's how I feel. All the time and how I know we both feel. But, like I will say that this conversation has been so helpful to me. Hearing your perspective on this has been so helpful to me. Oh, I'm glad I that's what I really love about these conversations and I hope our audience likes it too. But you know, we get two people to listen to it. I'm like, all right, I'm fine because it is just so helpful for me to hear that perspective on mental health. And like with your kids and stuff, it's you're in your bubble and not ever. The people that you talk to understand what you're going through, or they don't understand the nuances of what you're going through or their perspectives from their own lives, which is so different. It's just nice to hear, yeah, that perspective that helps me turn around and hopefully be a better parent until I mess up again. And I think that, you know, for us, I know we're wrapping up here, but and so I'm not trying to drag it out farther, but like, you know, we're okay with telling the truth about things. And I think that whether that reflects poorly on us because we're for shit parents or whatever it might be, I think that and just knowing the truth about somebody else who's going through something that feels like, you know, relate to bull, forget the relieves a lot of guilt. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Well, there's the word for a single parent. You take out single parent and put guilt like that is, to me, the operating feeling when you're a single parent under everything else is guilt. Because whether you made the decision to do it or not. Yeah. You know, it's there was another path that you didn't take. And this is the path you've taken. You have to live with that path. But you'll always feel guilt that you took that path because you brought your children along with you on the ride, and it probably was the right decision. It probably was the best thing you could do. But you know, knowing something is true and feeling something is true are often two very different things. And you are a closeted you, aren't you? You know, I really.