Good Luck, Babe: Can we instill a work ethic in our kids without being a-holes?

We want our kids to work hard and do well, but we also want them to be happy. How do we do both? And how do single parents get on the same page as their co-parent without descending into drama? Lili and Scott try to unpack it all, plus they decide once and for all if Jason Kelce is a bad dad.

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Transcript

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We were just talking right before we hit record about how, you know, we struggle over, you know, how to educate our kids. We're like, hey, let's just make that the episode. So this is so good about kids in school and co-parenting. And how do you get onto the same page with your co-parent and how to make sure that your kids aren't dumb? Yes, dumb I would. That's not what I would say. I would say like just doing the fucking work. How do you make sure that they're doing that? I have a little bit to say about that. I'm Lily, single mom to teen twins father. I'm recording in here and I'm Scott, single dad to a pre-teen boy. It's under the sink. We're two old friends trying to navigate single parenting and spending the whole time thinking, I hope I don't fuck this up. All right, so we're going to talk about, you know, educating our kids and the frustration we feel when they're outside of our purview. But first, we want to talk a little about the news because a story popped up. You know, recently that I found fascinating. And I was like, I wonder what Lily thinks about this. It's, it's about, Jason Kelsey is. Is Taylor Swift's, boyfriend in law. But, brother. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, he, his wife, just started a podcast. His wife, Kylie, and, you know, I don't I think it's successful enough, so I'm like, I say, yeah, they don't need them, you know? We want you listen to us. They do not need us. But they've got three kids and she's pregnant with the fourth one. And she just started this podcast. And one of the questions asked is, where are your kids while you're doing this podcast? And she says, while they're home with childcare, you know, I got childcare for them. I always get childcare for them when they leave the house. And the co-host was like, well, even when your husband is home, he's like, even when he's home, it doesn't matter. I always get childcare for them. And then she, you know, quickly tried to caveat it. He's busy. He's that. But then she followed up and he's like, but I don't you know, he does not look after the kids. Essentially she makes sure that the kids are looked after. And if she's not there, for whatever reason, he is not in charge of the kids. The childcare that she hired is in charge of the kids. And I thought, I mean, for one thing, this is a firestorm. I don't think she maybe she knows exactly what it's just. But there's been a firestorm. A lot of funny kind of tweets about it. There's one tweet, I just want to read this because they're funny. You know what these are? I got all these from Huffington Post. So, you know, blame them. But like, straight women are not okay. I can't imagine being married to somebody I don't trust with my kids. That's insane. And someone else said the fact that Jason has never had to worry about being responsible for his children is mind boggling to me, and my favorite is I would be genuinely embarrassed to admit this. It sounds like Kylie also has a 37 year old son at home. Like these are the kinds of things people are saying. And yet you hear the others, like, Jason's busy, Jason's a millionaire. He brings in all of this money. Oh, that's the only that's the only difference. I think, like, immediately at my thought was like, what an I can't believe that one man can't take care of his three children at the same time. I think obviously, if I had money and I could pay somebody else to be there, pick up all the toys and to make sure the snacks are put away and like, he can be there and be fun and play D&D because he's, you know, my multimillionaire making husband, then yeah, money solves a lot of these problems. But then she said, if that means that he's at the house and someone else is there, and that's what we have going home, going on, he will not be watching the kids. So essentially, the person in charge and responsible when she's not home is not him. So it's the child care person. Yeah. He bears no responsibility for the children at all. And to me, I mean, sure, you can buy your way. It seems like like, you know, any rich family with a nanny or whatever, but it still feels because I'm like, well, why would she bring this up? Why is she talking about it? I well, I think we know why she's talking about it because we talking about her. But I think it is like it's a good move. It's like a, it's a, it's rage baby, which, solid, solid move. But also like, the I guess the opposite side is, I don't know how young their kids are. Three kids is a lot of fucking kids. If it's about to be a fourth, that's a lot. That sounds like my guess is that they're fairly young. They're very young. And her husband, like, especially during football season, is traveling every other week at a minimum and training and at camp, like, I don't know how like when he and is off season, does he spend time with the kids, how the kids feel with them? Do they? There's a name like there's all kinds of, you know, and non rich families. This happens all of the time where like the kids don't listen to the dad. So like, the mom has to be there and you know, the or the dad just doesn't feel like it. Or he doesn't think that it needs as much direct oversight as the mom thing. So, like, she's just found a solution. My counter to that is that sometimes I think there's a certain sense of just pride and being the ones that kids rely on. It's a dynamic where you can you can inadvertently, almost infantilized your husband in this scenario. No way. I, I don't know, because has she put him in a position to be in charge of the kids? And what has happened? I'm sure she has and that is why she's hired someone. But I am not. I am not sure she has. I am not sure she has. Maybe. Maybe she has it. Like maybe if she were to put him in charge of. It's possible. Okay, it's possible I so I used to, my several jobs ago used to travel for work regularly. So like every six weeks or so, I'd be gone for nearly, a workweek. And my kids were much younger then, and that was kind of my, like, my, dick's variance in this. Like, even though I was the full time breadwinner at the time, and he was home with the kids or in the day, like, I would come home at night and I would still make dinner and make things clean and make sure everybody was doing homework and that sort of thing. And it wasn't because I enjoyed being the responsible for him. It was more like the things need to get done. So I got them done. And so when I was out of town, I would dread coming back to the house that I'd had to come back to because, like, he was good at keeping them alive, good at taking them to school. Get it? You know, like they ate whatever they ate. Which is fine, because, at the end of the day, it's all that matters, is that they've eaten. But it would be like, the biggest disaster. So, like, yes, you were responsible and you did all the things you just didn't do them like, well, so this is a constant problem. And this is something that actually it's it's own episode, but it's the idea of surrogate parenting, the idea that it isn't about whether or not you can both parent. It's are you parenting the same way? You know, ultimately, maybe it was rage bait what she was saying, but it's still a pretty strong statement to essentially say, my, my husband can't handle kids. Has he had any response? He has. Yeah, he has been shushed up about this. And but like it's a pretty that's a pretty strong statement. And so all I could think of is the rage made bit. But then there's also probably a little bit of her that maybe resents it and brings it up to throw a little shade. I think if you're, if you're a, football wife, you don't throw any kind of shade because you want to protect your your situation. The way I think about it is like raising your kids is a job. You each have your jobs. And so I what I've always hated is this idea that, well, my job makes more money than your job. And so you have to have two jobs, you know, that's that's what happened with my mom where it was like she was a full time mom. But my dad wanted money brought into the house, and so she had to go out and get a job. So she did all the mommy. Yeah. And she had a job. And so it's like my dad made more money. And so he got one job, and my mom didn't make as much money because she was she was, you know, a, administrative assistant to two doctors. I'd say all moms have two jobs, like, regardless of them, I made more money in my situation, and I was doing that, too. And I think that that is like the dynamic that we many of us. I'm not going to say all of us fall into typically like you, gender dynamics, etc., that it's I mean, we're still having this debate in every parenting article I read about the, you know, the labor divide, the mental load, like all of that stuff. It's even in relationships where, like with the best of intentions, it's a 5050 parenting household, chore division. Like, everything is written out and clearly 5050. The UN spoken truth, even in those is like, probably it's the moms who are pulling more weight. I mean, the thing is, it's funny because I don't I would say that's probably true 90% of the time. But what's interesting is when it does flip. No. Hold on, no, let me, let me, let me let me just say my point. Yes. Okay. Okay, then Lily has such thoughts on this. You just see, like she's literally right. If you can't see her, she's stretching her arm as if she's about to go into, like, a box. Of what? Like she is. So what I was going to say is, when it's flipped, the kind of a praise that men get for doing work that women do on the regular is obscene. is that like, we're often stuck in our little gender corner and we see it from our gender point of view, and women see a guy doing that, and they're just so gratified that somebody understands the work that they do and is like experiencing it. Well, what do you hear? Because like, you are full time single dad, like, I'm sure you get all kinds of pats on the back for what a good job you're doing as a as a single dad. I don't know, I get a weird kind of mix because I get I do get pats on the back, but I also get a lot of I get a lot of advice. There's a lot of people that just automatically assume that you don't know what you're doing because you're a dad, that I don't know what I'm doing. So I'm constantly getting advice. Even when I don't ask for it. I'm always getting like, oh, you should do this, or we do this. And I'm like, yeah, I've been a full time single dad now for six years. Like more than half my son's life. Like, I'm like, great at everything. No, but I am the worst cook in the world. Probably. But, like, I'm still, like, I know enough that to ask for help when I need it. I don't always need it foisted on me. But, what I have noticed, though, is that the communication lines that around your kids in school are run through just females circles. It's mothers groups. It's like, you know, and it's a lot. I'm not saying it's impossible for me because I've been able to do it, but it's not as easy for me to tap into those networks and be a part, So it's like you know, there's always it's a little bit harder for me to tap in because nobody expects me to be the one to handle any of that stuff. And, and the way that everyone talks to each other is not the way I talk to people. I am not a communicator in the same way as a guy. So I have to learn a new language. You're doing great. I know, I know, thank you. Lily. Lily as Lily is always trying to give me a pat on the back. But, but but it is. So this that transitions that transitions perfectly into education, I think, which that idea of who's in charge, surrogate parenting, which, I mean, it's a phrase I use, but it's something that comes up a lot, I know in my relationship. No, no, no. What do you mean? Like when it's your own kid surrogate parenting is trying to get the other parent to parent the way you would parent. So I think it happens a lot in our situations. It's a little bit about what you were talking about earlier, about, you know, I come home and things aren't done the way I would want them done. No, no, it's not the way I want them to be done. Just done. But you know what? That is the argument that my ex makes all the time. It's not her opinion, it's just fact. It. This is the way things are supposed to be done when we're talking about something like loading a dishwasher, is it like you put the plates in this place, in the spoons in this place? Like, if we're going to pull up the manual, there is a correct way to do it. But what I'm talking about is, are there dishes in the dishwasher here yet? You're dealing with a much different level. Well, let me explain to you what I'm thinking about. So my son is learning the cello and, you know, he's in the orchestra at school. He, played it last year, and then he liked it enough that we're doing it again this year. He's doing chamber as well as main orchestra, so he's really getting into it. He plays four times a week at school. And so my ex and I have been talking about his practice schedule at home, and she wants him to practice about three times a week when she's not at school. I originally agreed to that. And then once life started, I realized that he has so many things he has to do. An hour for a night. He's 11. Yep. All this stuff. It was too much. And so I pulled back and said, you can do it once or twice a week. And it turned into about once a week. And in my mind, practicing home once a week and then practicing four times at school, one of which is individual instruction at his age, which is 11 at an instrument. He's just starting to me. That's plenty. And we got into this big argument over whether or not, you know, I wanted him to be good at cello. And this is what you have to be to be good at cello. This is a fact. Not her opinion, but a fact. This is what you need to be good at, cello. You need to practice this much. And then she might not be wrong, but I think there's a more fundamental question is like, are you trying to produce a professional cellist and he did the concert. I thought he did great at the concert. Was he perfect at the concert? Of course not. He's an 11 year old. No. If you. Well, it sounds terrible to go to an 11 year old string on seven. All of hell, right? With the bad Pope. Oh my God. Bad popes and elementary school orchestra concerts all in the same time? Absolutely. It was. I mean, when the violins came in and it just sounded like there was like one of those Japanese water go spy me about to kill. Yeah, it was horrible. I mean, everybody's got to start somewhere, but you really have to wait. Just why are we there? Yeah, but he did a pretty good job. And they have, like, the chamber, which only did one song, which is like about half the orchestra played. It sounded great. It's him and another cellist. We get to the end and my ex tells me, pointing out, saying, do you see how much better the other cellist is? You see how much better his hand thing is? I know his mom and he practices as much as, you know, our son should be practicing and that's why he's so much better. And she kept saying it. And like, our son is doing fine. So yeah, but he could be doing better. He could be doing as good as the other child. Yeah. Well, I think your situation sounds complicated because it's like, you know, as we talked about before, like I personally find the suburbs as the seventh or eighth house in the eighth or ninth. But I think there's a probably a lot of competition like in, in built in competition there that she's like, sounds like she's partaking in or maybe not. I mean, maybe everybody just wants their their kid to be the best cellist and whatever that might. And but you're right. Like this comes down to parental philosophy. And I never know that I've had one until after the fact. But mine has always been like, you expose kids to everything. Like you give them opportunities to, like, partake and try things, and then you don't force it after that, like they try it. And if they're into it and they want to do it like that is the only way that you can get a kid to do something that they'll sustain. So like, I feel like the mistake that she's not wrong, that professional kids are playing music 100% like start young and are practicing every day. But like, are you making a happy kid? I guess from my point of view is I didn't want to sacrifice other things, and other things is his school and he does an hour of homework a night. It's this other this kind of playing and playing. I think it's important. And I think just that sense of like not overwhelming him. And, and then, you know, then I there's the flip side of it, which is, oh, he's, he's not going to do it himself. And I forgot, do you know my solution to any time that it's something like this is like write, write the shit down, like you have a calendar. You have a calendar. That doesn't mean I can't forget. I'm capable of forgetting things. In any scenario for you, the calendar is not for you. The calendar is for your son. Yeah. So, like, he, you know, he's checking and doing it. And if he doesn't do it, like I'm also a fan of, like, natural consequences. Oh, that's a that is a very interesting thought. This is why I talked to Lily. Because Lily has all the air. It's funny. This is the great irony of this podcast. I go into this podcast saying, I want to solve all your problems. Lily comes in saying, I just want to share. I end up sharing all the time, and Lily ends up solving all my problems. How did that happen? How did that happen? But that is such an interesting idea. The idea of I put a calendar up. We have a calendar up on the fridge. Everybody's agreed to what do I have one. He's never looked at it once because there are no consequences for him looking at it. But the idea of this is your thing. You need to check off as you go. And if you don't check it off, there's a consequence that is, where I don't. Yeah. All I have to do is look at the end of the night and see how many check marks there are. Yeah, that's not a I can get behind that. Yeah. You give him the responsibility. You know, it's like a empowering him. And B if he doesn't do it like say he doesn't practice and he messes up in a concert, I'm sure you'll be disappointed in himself. Well, I like what I like about that too though, is that this was very top down. We are like, you need to practice three times a week. Yeah, but I have noticed when he practices is that he doesn't always get better when he practices. Sometimes he just makes the same mistakes over and over again. And he he is the most stubborn kid. I'm learning that all kids are stubborn, but he is so frickin stubborn. And when I try to correct him, he gets mad and he won't listen. And this and that. That with me is a tough yes. And that's why. So I've honestly pulled back. That's the other reason why I don't push him to practice as many times a week, because I think he gets more out of practicing at school where there's somebody to correct him he'll listen to totally than he does at home, where I'm like, I mean, I know what he's doing wrong. And I can point out to him, you know, I can point out where he's not crescendoing correctly or if he's not, you know, missing messing up a, you know, a meter pattern or something. And I can point all that out to him and he's just like, dad, leave me alone. Like he just doesn't want to hear it from me. My kids played instruments all throughout elementary school that, you know, you start on the devil's whistle, then he's the devil. Why didn't he do that? Why did he start on the recorder? It's so evil. Don't know. And then they move to violin, which is also the worst. Because I've been to that. And then my daughter, when they got to be good enough to be an orchestra, my daughter picked saxophone. And my son got though I know my son got clarinet now, it's fine, we made it too. But. So they played music all through elementary school and then kind of took a Covid happened during their middle school, but he was in a music program and she's like, I'm done. I'm I'm tapped out. I'm like, not interested in pursuing it. And he picked up and taught himself ukulele and then guitar and then everything on his own. Yeah. And like, there could have been nothing in the world, but I did it. I said, why don't you practice it? Totally. It has to be something that they want to do to get better. And I have, you know, as opposed to the kind of child I was, which was like your son, irate if somebody tried to correct me. Mine are super coachable children, and this is very strange to me, but that makes sense. I mean, just naturally. But I like, you know, I was in the same thing, like, I, my mom was a piano teacher and she tried to teach me piano. And I refused. And there's like, I would not learn piano, I tried guitar, I hated it, you know, when I was in elementary school and I picked it up freshman year on my own, taught myself to, taught myself piano, I played trombone. That was the one thing that, you know, because you had to play something in school, which is the instrument I don't play anymore. But I had a goal. Like I want ended up being better. And picking up chicks like that was my goal. And with the trombone, you know, the trombone wasn't doing it. I moved the guitar because, you know, you could be suggested with a trombone, but no ladies like it. And I could, I could, but it's plus plus, you know, you realize that the trombone, there's a split valve. So every time you place just saliva, everyone can watch. Just all the saliva from your mouth pouring out of your. There's nothing sexy about the trombone when you're in middle school. Hey, now. Sorry, but I will say that there is a, There is a downside to my tactics, Mike, since my kids are in high school now, like, I really pulled back from being involved with their teachers and stuff because I, I think that they should learn like to, you know, I know we came from Jennings. My parents didn't know anything about my grades other than, like when I brought a report card. And they were like, oh, great. Good job. That was the only involvement. Like, I had to get my mom's signature. And eventually I got so good at faking her signature that I didn't even bother. My one child, takes all the responsibility, knows everything to be done. Grades are good on top of it all of the time. And that's great. And that's what I hoped would happen. Like, I actually think that in empowering your children to be in charge of themselves, you teach them a better lesson. Except for when they don't do things that they shouldn't be doing. We get a big, angry letter from one of the high schools that said, your child is in danger of failing English. This will, you know, compromised their their graduation as and because I don't check in, I definitely am not the parent like I think it is so creepy that parents now can log into these school accounts and check on their kids grades every single day, and that I have refused. Like I won't sign up. I will not do this. Like this is not for me. You mean what I think of as the greatest invention known to man is that I can now micromanage my son's education? Yes. So I've never done it. I will not do it. And I've entrusted that, like, you know, and I, you know, I, I say like, oh, do you have work to do this year? Anything. You know, checking in. And I often get a response like, no, it's fine. Okay. So one of them is experiencing some natural consequences right now, but I've thought like, well, yeah, should have pushed more or asked more. But like I do like I think there is no better lesson than like, oh shit, I fucked up and now I have to fix this or else the consequences are extreme. It's so I mean, this is the constant battle that I have, like with my son's education. It's like I have high expectations. I have high expectations because I, I know what he's capable of. And I know that his biggest problem, he's got two problems. One is motivation. Getting every kid's problem is motivation. He's 11. Yes, exactly. But his other problem is, is he doesn't like asking for help from anybody, so he will. I feel like he's mine now. I know I sound like everything about him, but like, exactly like leans into his. He, you know, he he is so confident in his wrong answer that he doesn't want to listen to, you know, how to get the right answer. He'd much more be just very proud of his wrong answer. And then and you know, to the point where, you know, he's had crying fits about it. Like like he like literally does not want to be pushed on this stuff. Yes. Part of that, I'm sure, is because of my own expectations. Like, you know, he can and some of that might just be personal like that's. But but at the same time I'm like, I don't want to just. You know, where is that level? We're going to talk to someone who's all about free range kids. And I'm like, where is that level of free range when it comes to education and yeah, and I've been very free range. Very free range because I do think that it is the only way to create independent people. It's like make them responsible for themselves. Now with this safety net. Like, you know, we that and a high school I think is probably the right age. I think 11 to like you're going to need a lot more something but still no. And I do not expect any 11 year old to be motivated to play anything other than like Minecraft. Oh, robotics. Yeah, yeah. The way that you can make good adults, I think, is to not do all of this stuff for them. But then we get to do it like the situation where like, okay, what do we do when my hands off ness now, like, like I, I didn't yell about it, but I was like, dude, you have got to fix this. What I, I had to, like, get his dad and be like, what are we doing to fix this? Because it can't just be a me effort. My question has always been, I. I work with a lot of self-motivated people. I, you know, honestly, magazine industry especially littered with self-motivated but not self-motivated, strong, which, I feel like I worked with a lot of women in magazines that have somebody voice in their head, and they're constantly hearing that voice. And I have never been around harder workers than like, I worked at cosmopolitan and the women at cosmopolitan. It is nothing more interesting than watching the best, educated, smartest women killing themselves over sex articles. And like top three things to name is Dong. And yet knowing this is it like a Yale education? Yeah. And like super motive. Like incredibly intense. Like going over this 30 times to make this dong article perfect and just realizing, like, this is what are you know, these are the people that should be solving the world's problems and instead yet they are writing dong articles. And that's a very sad thing. But as I watch that happen, I'm like, there's a voice in their head that makes them that productive and that makes them that good at even this job, like they're good at, you know, they're just so good at their jobs because of that voice. And I always ask myself, where does that voice come from on the other side? Does it make you happy to have that voice in your head? Probably not. You know, like, it's probably exhausting. And I was one of those kids too, but I and and much like my daughter, like, this is just like it wasn't any parent parental voice. Like there was expectations of me. But just because, like, that's what you do, like you, you know, you do school, you do well. And I had an older brother and sister, one of whom didn't do great in school, but not for lack of trying. And one of them could do well but didn't try. Yeah. So like then they were not ideal students. I was, I was like completely self-motivated. I totally enjoyed everything. I wanted the best grade in class. I hated that like somebody else. Six people graduated higher than I did in our graduating class. And like, whatever are they smarter or not? I still have debates about that to this day. However, that was completely self-driven. Like I didn't have, like, I mean, I did have my father would say when I would be proud of a test grade, and it was like a 98, like where the other two points. So like there probably is some motivation there. I may have said that I would never say that to your son again. If we get one thing out of this podcast, like do not do that day, but the thing that if you don't have that voice, I don't think it's good to have a, like a, I mean, I don't know, like, can replace you don't think if a voice is an internally generated, it can't really be replaced by someone else's voice? I don't think it's healthy to like, I know those same kind of women that you're talking about. I literally was having a conversation because, you know, media industry is imploding. Everybody's laying off everybody all the time. One of my former colleagues just got laid off after two months on a job at a magazine. And and she was like, I can't believe I've wasted so much of my life about this trivial bullshit. And so if you've got this, like, highly educated, super motivated, you know, task driven person who in their 40s is like, what did I just do? I don't think that's great either. Yeah. What did I just do with my life? I mean, you know, I do wonder if like, I mean, because what we're talking about is like, how do you how do you build a work ethic in your child? Where does it come from? And does it come from them? Does it come from you? A mix like where does work ethic come from? Yeah, because that's really what we're talking about. And and I the problem is I don't know that answer very well. And so like, I'm trying to instill it and not sure if I'm doing a good job of it or not. And then you run into the other half the conversation that you almost got into, which is when you're split, you now have two different opinions on how a work ethic should go. And you have, you know, you have your own focused time for your method versus when you're married. And you can, you know, kind of have to measured or one person takes the lead. Now I'm handing over my idea of work ethic to you. Do you have the same idea as me and what happens when you don't? We always parented differently even when we were together, like on them, probably on the bigger things we agreed. But there was definitely like the give and take of like when I would there I would when they were little, I was very rigid about like school week schedule.

So like home by 4: 29:58

00 from the playground, like, get all your playing out after school between 4:00 and 6:00. Like, that's homework time. If you don't get the homework done in that time, like, that's it. We're not doing any more. Like, if any elementary school kid needs more than two hours of homework, like, then that's a problem with me and the teacher and not a problem with the kid. I mean, honestly, that's so much homework. Two hours in a in a on a school day for elementary school. It was insane. So I wanted to put a firm boundary on it. And then like six to whatever eight is like dinner and family time. And you could watch an episode of something if you wanted to after dinner and then like, so I was really strict about that and he was not. So like, that was my task mastered. Like I said, he was good at coaching. So like if they were out playing sports or doing other things, like he would take them around in adventures and like give them a nice like give them an experience, life experience that I wouldn't have given them. So it's like a nice like yin and yang that we had about raising these kids together. But now we have either just union. Union. Yeah. And then yes. And that's the hard thing. Like, because when you do need to come together on like a big deal, like I found that letter from the school a huge fucking deal. Yeah. And like you need to be unified. And we had a communication together. And then I pulled him aside afterwards and I was like, did you talk to him? Did you talk to him? Like, what? What did you say? He's like, you know, I told him I was like, listen, I'm not mad at you, but when he's at your house, he does this when you know, when he's like, you know, he knows how to work it and work the system. You work the system. And I was like, we just have to be on the same page. We just have to get him to the finish line. What do you do, though? What do you do when it's not matched up? Like, what do you do when it gets off the rails? Like you just quietly see, like, how do you approach your your co-parent when you feel like that is gone off the rails a little bit? Like how do you start that conversation without it being combative? Well, this is the first time that I ever said to him, I'm not mad at you. I like I thought that was super helpful. I'm like, listen, this is not me being heated at you. This is me being annoyed at this situation and like, heated about this situation. But like, we are having this quiet, quiet discussion and about serious whispering in the bathroom. Totally. Because, you know, we live in an apartment. Yeah, I know what you order. I think I've in the small house, but I can at least go. There's a corner of the house where you can have this conversation. I don't know, I went into the bathroom, I turned on my hairdryer. So exactly what are you in the American or something? I think, like trying. And that was, you know, it's been years. And, like. Like I said, we've been separated for years. And that was the first time it occurred to me to say to him, I'm not mad at you about this because I thought, like, I just don't want it to be a battle between us. Yeah. I want us to feel unified and like that was the only thing I can think of in that moment to like, because I know I can come off intensely and I know I can be intimidating. And I know, like, when somebody comes at you like that, like you're automatic, the reaction is to be defensive. So I it literally took five seconds when I, it occurred to me how I was being as like, oh, maybe she'll think that I'm yelling at him about this when it's not his fault either. But like, I just wanted to make sure that we got the same communication across words, which was, you fucking asshole. It's the part. Yeah. What happens when he has that issue with you? Like how? Because, you know, you have had the kids during the week. You have more control over that stuff than he does. So, like, if he has a question, how does he approach it with you? He's not a great communicator, which has always been one of our issues. He did tell me recently that he thought I was overreacting to something which did not go well. But it, I don't know, like, there's a I think even in our marriage, it was like there's a lot of me being like, do you really need to be so uptight about this to myself? Like me saying that to myself and letting go a lot because I think if it was just me all of the time, I would be super uptight about a lot of things. And it's been for the best that I've learned to not be. So for him, it's more stuff like, why don't you just let this go? But that that is just like, you know, that is that's the same as you saying to him, you know, pay more attention. Him saying, let something go. It's the same impulse. It's just a different request. So he just says it to you. He's just like, I think you should let this go. And then you, like, take that in and and you're not just like you're not, you know, like it doesn't turn into an argument. It's. That is more of a voice in my head talking about, like, little voices in your head. Like, that's more a voice of in my head right now of my own. Like, okay, is this worth the kind of, upset that you've got right now? Like, or does it really matter? Does it really matter the things you replace him in life and just put his voice into your head? I mean, because we kind of grew up together like we were together from the time I was 19, so like, maybe and maybe I'm a voice in his head, too, because I have her voice in my head occasionally. Yeah. And the voice is always it's almost like you hear it so much in your marriage that once it's gone, the echoes of it continue like they don't go away. Totally. And it's like you just, you know, you say something or you think something, and then there's. Yeah, it's almost it's not a flinch per se, but sometimes it is. But you just wait for the silence to be filled with that opinion that you've been hearing. Yeah, for 13 years, 20 years, whatever it is. But what's, what's kind of almost nice about that is that you get that because you've you've taken that with you, you know, you don't need him to say it anymore because you say it to yourself. And so you get rid of the, you know, the negative side of it, which was the actual argument about it or whatever. Yeah. And you just had the argument in your head. And so you, you can kind of get the positive out of it. It's like you've, you've strained the poison out of and you're just getting the juice. The thing that actually makes me try to like back off a little bit about like how controlling I am not, I mean, controlling, but like, I'm always in charge of everything. It's just me. No, really, I have not noticed. So. But the personality traits of his that are wonderful, that I see in them are reasons that make me remember, like, oh, it's this is not a battle. Like, we've created this cool thing together. And like, they wouldn't be who they are without him. And and also knowing like, we're so worried about the futures of our kids and like, you know, and I think we're probably right. I mean, I was brought up a little different than you. My dad is very concerned about my grades and paid a lot of attention and stuff like that. But yeah, it didn't make me like some crazy hard worker. I have nothing on the women at Cosmo. Like like I couldn't, like, turn that into anything, but at least it just made it important enough, that, you know, I just valued it, I guess. But, you know, this the sense of if my dad and my mom were to look ahead when I was my son's age and try to plot out a life for me, they would never have come anywhere close to the life I have. And of course, not even close, and yet very proud of the life I have. I'm proud of the life I have. Like, you know, it worked out well, even though they could not have micromanaged me there. And so it's like looking at my son to be like, am I going to go, you know, we're going to force him to play cello, so he'll thank me later when he's in the Philharmonic. Am I going to force him to do two hours of homework a night, even though he's like he's passing out halfway through? I think I will say, whatever it is, don't be like my dad and remind me to say like, you know, I really so wish you were a doctor. the idea of what is a foundation and what is micromanagement. And you got to figure out like, yeah, you know what that is. And that's the hardest thing because my idea of that is different than my X's idea of that. Yeah. And we're all tainted by our own experiences too. Like I would be I wouldn't ever I am not, and I probably should be more of a micromanager in anything I do in my work life and my family life, except for the dishwasher. And like, I'm not a micromanager. Not at all. But I think that comes from me always knowing what I'm doing. Like I'm always in charge of myself, and I expect other people to have that sort of control over themselves. And like when you're talking about your kids, like you can't expect that of kids. So like, somebody's got to, like put in the guardrails or the barriers or the, instruction, you know, and when you are doing that, when they're young, it's in an effort to, like, produce a person who can do this, who can replicate it for themselves when they're older and what, like it feels like again, I never think I have a philosophy, but clearly I do like that is like that's how I felt about it. And so when she didn't do the same thing where I thought, like, oh, I'm doing all this stuff to like make a good future adult. And like, when you don't do that, like, that means you're going to ruin their whole lives. Like, that's it's not that serious. Well, we have to recognize that we are not the only influence on our kids. And oftentimes the biggest influence is in us. Like, I am the way I am as much because of the three bullies in third grade as I am for anything that my parents did. So there's so many influences, positive integrity that we're kind of overstating our own impact on our kids lives when we do all of that. Well, it's funny though, when we come into this argument, you know, my ex and I often cannot come to an agreement on this on the some of these things, like we just. Yeah, but heads we just disagree and, yeah. And so what we've decided to do, which we she chafes at but we do is a third party expert on things. So if there is something neutral, party is a great idea. We have a third party expert. Whether it's my son's therapist, whether it's, you know, his doctor, whether it's, his teacher, you know, his cellist, cello teacher, you know, whatever, whatever it is, like, let's bring in a third opinion and let's let that opinion be our tiebreaker. And, it's I mean, I feel like it's fairly effective, even though, you know, it's run against me a couple of times, you don't always get to win. So I know, I know that, I don't I it's probably not the best way to do things, and it's just the way we're doing things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I would love to. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard if, if people have other ways in which they mediate this kind of stuff. And I know where it started talking about education, but now we're talking about everything. But, you know, I would love to hear what other people do, because, you know, I came to most of this. We came to most of this ourselves. And like, it's not like we had like eight methods of in front of us. And we just cherry picked Scott has so much more expertise on his side, like therapists and counselors and stuff, and I'm just like winging it and hoping everything turns out okay. Well, you know, I don't know. You have such a cool you have cool kids, but oh, you have cool kids. That's, you know, that's, that's a win right there. I wish I was cool when I was their age. He's way cooler than I ever was. So there's that. And my daughter, it gives way less of a shit about everybody else, her age, peer group than I ever did. So like, also when she doesn't do social media and I feel like that is the biggest win of all, that is so good. Good for her. She's like, it's stupid. I'm not going to do it, which is great. But that again, is like, okay, that's the combination of parenting. Like, I wouldn't we wouldn't have ended up with these kids without like, and again, like going back to like what you liked about each other. Like there is something that attracted you to each other and like, wanting to have a, a, you know, create a family together is like, you want a little bit of each of that person in the people that you create in the world. And, you know, if you can just like, see that it's cool. Yeah. It's, you know, I am all for that. Make that happen. But if you get an A every once in a while, I ain't going to be mad at it. Seriously. He's he's failing his manga class and he loves it in this just because he hasn't showed up to do the work. He says it's that I don't understand. Just because the subject matter is enjoyable doesn't mean it's easy. But his dad is 100% sure the the classes in college that I enjoyed the most. I got the worst grades in. So so it makes sense because this is our education system I think is entirely messed up. Our education system is all about, creating a resume. It's not about becoming a well-rounded person. It's the and and when I got to college, I was like, you know what? I'm going to learn most that it's not in class, it's in building teams. It's in running clubs. Yeah. Like that's what life is about. Not just the knowledge you have. It's how do you manage people? How do you work in a group? How do you lead people. And so that's what I focused on. And then I took oceanography and I got a C and I loved it. It was the best course. But I challenged myself because I don't know anything about oceanography. And so I'm going to get an A because it's not like I took Shakespeare. I got a name. Shakespeare. I know everything about Shakespeare. I've been studying it since I was little and a crap about the ocean. So I'm starting from nothing. But I learned so much and you should be allowed to do that. Like you should be allowed to take a class and get a C in it and walk away. And it should not mess up your resume. I would kill for a C for everything. Make sure that I got well. I went to Germany for two for for one semester and I was studied abroad in Germany and it tanked my GPA. It tanked it because I barely speak German. The only reason they let me go was because they needed a certain number of people for the program. So suddenly my C became the B minus just okay. Because I got there, I barely spoke the language I like got B minuses and C pluses and all my classes because I mean, as I was saying, I had, you know, that was it was a hard experience. I won't say it was like easy, but it was formative. And I walk away a completely different person because I had it. And because of it, I ended up with a GPA. Right? You know, right smack in the middle of my graduating class. Whereas my friends that never did anything like that and just stuck to their majors, they ended up with A's and they ended up with these great GPAs. And yet I feel like I had nowhere near the life experience that I had. Fair. And has anybody ever asked them since they graduated from college what their GPA is? Nobody. That is the thing. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. All of the times that somebody has put their GPA or like, never tried to like, foist their incredible education on their application to a job. I actually think like, actually, I'm going to give somebody else a chance who didn't get to go to. Yeah, well, I will say you are not the norm. I'm not difficult. No, I am I am a contrarian. A good school can help it. As it gets more competitive, as more people are out there, there is that, you know, line and they just wipe away everyone below their line. A lot of people. And if you can somehow get above that line, you don't need the best GPA. You don't need to be at the top. You just need to be above the line. So what is above the line mean? It can be a certain kind of school. It could be a certain kind of life experience. It could be a certain kind of leadership. Whatever it is, you got to be, you know, instead of thinking, I need to be way up here, it's how do I make sure that when they, you know, do their sorting, I'm on the right side? Yeah. And, that doesn't mean nothing. And I think, so I also, I mean, I paid for my way through both of my colleges, but I went to a private undergrad, and then I went to an Ivy for, like, my post-grad, and it doesn't make a fucking difference. It was that. So screw all these people. That's frustrating. And, well, it's not, it's not it's not frustrating because I thought it should make a difference. What's what I mean by that is like, I didn't learn anything better different at Columbia than I learned other places. I think that I could have gone to, like, you know, community college and taken the same bio, same cam, same calculus, like all of that and learned exactly the same way and a hell of a lot less money. And it's, you know, elitist bullshit, but like to take us back, like to talk that way. You're trying to take about education. I know, like it. Is it like an interesting thing to, like, think about because, you know, not only will you have to say like art for your son, like, are you passing that bar that you were just talking about for your cello practice or for whatever? Like, you know, are you making sure your parent is with you on what you want for your get that? And that's hard to like because at this point, like my main goal, and maybe this is not the greatest goal, but I think it's the sanest one, is like, I want my kids to have to be happy and to be able to support themselves. That is it. That is it like the kind of pressure that, you know, our parents might have put on us, like the fact that my dad still won't drop the fact that I didn't become a doctor, like I never want like I want them to be happy and enjoying their lives and be able to pay their rent. You know, it's pretty simple. It's I think that I think that we're both on that same page, like, you know, my ex and I'm, oh, you and your ex. Yeah. I know, like, you and me are arguing about it all the time by accident. Yeah. That we. Yeah. We want my son like, we want to do everything that help him become a rockstar if that's what he wants to be. And we want my daughter to be like a famous novelist or like, if that's what she wants to do, but, like, if she doesn't and or if he doesn't and they can, like, make a living happily, that's it. My my twist on that, I guess, is that, I want my son to know enough to be able to pivot. Like, I feel that I have done three jobs in my life. None of. Yeah, two of the three jobs did not exist when I graduated to like. You're going out into a world you know, doctor is sure they'll always be doctors and lawyers and things like that. But if you are not one of those things, then you're probably going out into a world to do a job that does not exist right now. So yeah, it's that's why I like it when everyone argues with me about, you know, the liberal arts education and people like it's, you know, what about trade schools, what about this and that? And I'm like, well, liberal arts education teaches you how to do a job that doesn't exist. And that is, I think, incredibly valuable. It's a good point. It's a valuable. I did have a liberal arts education myself. And you're doing something that my degree in philosophy did not prepare me for a life in digital media. But what it did to me is also it's like you go to college and you're not going to college just to do your degree. You're doing your college to learn how to ask questions. You're going to college, hopefully to learn how to manage. I mean, I learned how to manage people in college. Like that's why I was able to, you know, when I graduated, I was able to rise in my job fairly quickly because I had already started in acapella group. It sounds stupid, but I started an acapella group and learned how to run it, learned how to market it, and did all that at school. And school enabled me to do that. And so when I'm looking at like my son or what I would wait, what I where I just really want to see the acapella outfit so that you can meet God where you want it. You want to know the name of the acapella group? Kind of. It's bad. It was the finish. Strong tones. This the sound of something being thrown out a window. That was the name of my acapella. I. I'm very clever. The point I think I want my son to be comfortable enough with the unknown. And that is what I think a good education can hopefully do is make you comfortable with the unknown. And so that doesn't necessarily mean the best school in the world or this in that. No. But like good question though. Like do you know that that is the same thing that you're that his mom. That's right. I know it's not. And so have you ever talked about that. No. Not really. I think that's a great that's a great point is to have that conversation. I don't think she would disagree with me on it. I think we would probably disagree. I mean, because she does jobs that didn't really exist either, being able to agree on philosophy so that when you go to the particulars of how to get there, you're coming from the same place. That is totally that makes a lot of sense. I do that, I do that with work all the time. I ask, like, what's our goal all of the time? Like, of, like, you know, super senior people so that I can know what we're working towards. Yeah. And I, you know, when I answer the question, like, I have not had that conversation with my ex, I kind of feel like we're both on the same page and like we because we don't argue about it too, too much. I haven't had it. But like, as we're talking about it, it occurred to me like that is exactly the same thing. Like what are we working towards here? Yeah. Like, what is it that we're trying to accomplish? Maybe she wants him to be a professional cellist, if you know, and if he wants that, like, maybe she's right and, like, wanting to push him three times a week if he wants it to. But if what you're both working towards is like a different goal where he can pivot and be a, you know, this Renaissance man, then maybe that's that's a good way to like tackle the parts of you disagree. Yeah. No, that's a good point. I it just comes to me. It comes back to like that self-motivation part of being able to react to the world is being motivated to do so. And I find it difficult to push people to do things they're not motivated to do because, yeah, that's not going to make them any more likely to do it in the future. There's going to be happy they don't have to do it anymore. When you stop. And to understand what we're thinking in our heads is, I wish somebody had made me great at the cello so that I could be great at it now. And without thinking, the reason why I'd be great at cello right now is because I really fucking wanted to do it when I was young. Yeah, you don't become great at something because you're forced to do it. You become great because you want to do something. And hopefully that dovetails, you know, maybe with a Tiger mom wanting you to do it. Maybe that's why they're the best, but you want to do it. You don't do something like that. If you want to do it. I mean, it's kind of why I don't feel terrible about my I mean, I do feel I'm angry about my my kid failing English, but, like, be cut. You know, he has his own. You know, he works hard at his music. Really, really hard at his music. I am very bad. My, my take, my takeaway has. Have a takeaway. Yeah. My takeaway please. My takeaway is you just gotta, you just gotta know that you don't have the control you think you do. And let that inform your decisions. It's not given up is this is how I look at it. It's not me giving up. It's not me saying that my son's education doesn't matter. It's not me saying my opinion doesn't matter because it very much does. And it's not me saying it's all. It's just me saying I can control what I can control, and I can't control what I can't control. And I am just going to have to somehow learn to be okay with that. That is a good takeaway. That's my Lilly's takeaway is her son is the next Bono. That is her takeaway, I think is I'm more of a Bruce Springsteen type, but fine. No, no, no, listen, he better. He might be the voice of the next generation. That's all I'm saying is he's a voice of a generation. To quote girls, still one of my favorite lines. No matter what ever happened to that show, that line was going to get line. It's a good line. All right, well, have a lovely day, Lily. I will talk to you soon. Let's talk soon. Okay. Thanks for watching. Don't forget to subscribe. Leave a like or a crazy comment. We'd love to hear from you and see you again soon.