It's The Most Wonderful Time Of The Year: Co-parenting over the holidays without losing it

It's the holidays and Lili and Scott are getting ready for the hardest co-parenting month of the year. From how to handle Christmas morning to the joys of tasting the ex's girlfriend's cooking to the unexpected landmines of old Christmas ornaments, they laugh and cry their way through the most emotional time in a single parent's year. Can they keep it together? Spoiler alert: probably not.

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Transcript

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Well, I'm taking my test. My ADHD test. That's exciting. Yeah, there's, like, a test you take. And I'm going to find out whether I have ADHD at my advanced age. My sister has diagnosed our entire family. Oh, wow. Yeah. Necessarily wrong about. There's a. Genetic component, but she's like, oh my God. We are. I once again, I want to find that perfect person who doesn't have anything and punch them in the face right now. But today, we're talking about something else that makes me sometimes want to punch people in the face. Which, yeah. Challenges are coming. They're coming. It's co-parenting holiday season, which is always exciting. So we're going to talk all about how we get through the holidays with our expanded families coming up. I'm Lilly, single mom, two teen twins father. I'm recording in here. And I'm Scott, single dad to a pre-teen boy. Yeah, it's under the. Sink where two old friends trying to navigate single parenting. And spending the whole time thinking, I hope I don't fuck this up. All right, well, first I get before we start talking about holidays, which are up on us. It feels like it started in October. It did? It started August. Yeah, I started, like, literally January 2nd. This week, do we have anything that we want to talk about or need forgiveness for? I was a total asshole at one point this week. If you'd like to hear about it. I would please. How are you? In a hole. I have a certain things that are triggers for me. I feel like, as we've talked about, as all humans do. I've got two of them. One is lying, which is like. Fair enough. Apparently also ADHD. Components. They're quick, like trust and like, I won't fall down that rabbit hole. But the other one is, being interrupted. What? Being tried. Right. I tried to interrupt you, and I wasn't fast. I want to go get ready. I'm gonna do it again. Try again. Being into. Being. Into what? Sorry. I think the more. Okay, more aggressive. My ex was very good at interrupting, and so it's a real sore spot for me. And I don't know if any other single parents are like this, but the things that were like the bugaboo in your marriage are, like, now, the thorn in your sides that you're going to confront in every single possible instance of them. So I was he he also started doing this thing where he would just walk away when I was speaking mid-sentence, like, not aggressively, just like he had turned off and walked. And I was like, oh, it's a thing that anybody could possibly do to somebody else. However, I, I didn't for reflecting exactly how frustrating it was until, this week I was, you know, I was sitting at the kitchen, you know, we have a, an apartment. So the kitchen table is in the same room as the living room. My daughter was sitting on the couch. I was at the table doing something. We were talking. My son was in the kitchen behind me like, everybody is talking. It was my turn. It's my turn to talk. Like for the seventh time I was interrupted and like, not allowed to finish the speech. And I slammed my hand down on the table like Teresa Giudice and the Real Housewives of New Jersey. I hey, I tearful and scream, stop interrupting me! Do you know how rude that is? I just like I rarely scream, I rarely like, well, you know, we'll argue and it's fine. And I, you know, I will get intense, but I very rarely scream. And I did, and it was so effective that everybody just started acting real nice to me. And I didn't apologize because I was like, I'm not fucking apologizing for this because they were wrong. I mean, maybe I should go back now with a couple of days and say like, hey, I probably should have handled that better. For what? Like screaming as opposed to like, no, I don't want you to interrupt me. It's so, so disrespectful. I don't want you to walk away in the middle of when I'm speaking a sentence like I was so mad, but that definitely it's not the kind of behavior I want to model. For. My child to give. They acted that way. I was trying to think like, would I want them doing that? And I and on one hand, yeah, my daughter especially like, if some man is interrupting her, I want her to freak out in there. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, that's what I did, but I've been thinking about since as like, oh, I should tell Scott about. The you're what? For one thing, you played it perfectly. I do, I do the same thing actually, where it's like you will have more emphasis, like you will get more out of your blowup when you don't do it that often. Yeah. So, like holding out until that one moment and then bam, that's how I would do it at work all the time with my team. Like, I want to like, be super quiet, super nice. And then when I blew up everyone, it. Meant something. Because that meant something. Yeah, it's hard to do with a kid because I want to blow up all the time. I know, but, but, you know, when I, you know, when I blow up at him, like, really blow up, you know what to do, because he never sees it. Because I'm. Yeah. I'm a pretty patient person. Yeah. I can't wait to see the comments from the people who know me on that statement, but I think I'm a pretty patient person. But, but yeah, I mean, I just tip my cap. I just think you playing it well, like, that's I mean, sure, it's. They were doing something wrong. They're interrupting you. It's disrespectful. You are the the the the matriarch. That's I mean, they you they honestly should be giving a small piece of their food to you. And they should they. That would be nice if they, like, treated me like a tribute. Queen. Serve you exactly. The bad thing about that. Like the way that I wouldn't, I don't know, I don't think it was I don't think I think that here's the problem. When they were little, I would scream a lot. Right? Right. Like stopped right at like you ask them like five times and they didn't listen. And by the fifth time, like, you screamed, like I said, stop hitting your brother or whatever. And then they would listen. And it made me really angry and like, I didn't want them to just listen to me when I screamed at them. Yes. And like, there's, like, I had created that situation where, like, I wasn't making the change until I got so mad that I was screaming and like, I didn't scare them. They weren't scared of me. I think maybe a little. When they're when they're a little, they're scared of you. Terrified. Yeah, I am, I'm awful. I've seen you at work. People, people. They hide. They do you. Like. You're so quiet. There's, like, so much. Except for my bosses. Like, everybody loves me. I know what I love about Louis, but the one thing you know about I need to know about Lily. Lily does not keep her mouth shut when she thinks that Lily will tell you. Lily will tell you. And if Lily works for you, what you will get is you will get somebody who will be honest with you. And you may not want to hear it, but yes, that's right, I never you know, I wait too long to say it. You know, I, I, I'm often a get along kind of guy and so I wait too long. And so when I finally do say it, you know, sometimes it takes a little hard to get through because I've been so supportive that Lily, on the other hand, is not stupid just to tell you. That I will. I like whatever, and like if you don't like that, you can get rid of me, which I'll talk about in the future. But no, but that's it. If you're if if a boss has a problem with that, that's that's a boss shooting themselves in the foot because you need people under you, they're going to tell you like it is like, what do you want? Yes. Men all the time. And I will say, the people that worked for me and loved it anyway. So the people who work for me really are devoted and committed because I am also very honest and transparent with them. But that's again another and a topic for another day. So you forgive. Me? Of course I forgive you. I admire you guys. It's really what that's about. It's just funny, my after listening to the, the first episode, my my girlfriend, to be blunt about it, I think fell in love with you a little bit. And she just thought you were hilarious. And now I think that she's going to dump me to marry you. Okay. I'll be nice to her. Oh. Well, you know, it's funny, I. I don't know if I tell this on this one, but, you know, I met her mom last night for the first time. And, so my my girlfriend is German, and her mom, she doesn't get see very often because she lives in Germany. And, like, they can't fly over much. So it's like once a year and I see her. Yeah. Over. And so I had never met her before. And I've been dating. Dating? We've been dating for a year and a half. And her mom comes over and she's six foot one. Whoa. Intimidating. I she's a former javelin athlete. Like, she won like metal. Wow. She's East German. So she won medals in East Germany during the days of East Germany. A tough lady. In other words, this is a woman that could break me in half. Over her knee. Yep. Like a Kit-Kat bar. And you know, I'm right at bosom level, which could go wrong. When she hugs me. And which my girlfriend thought was the funniest thing in the world. I like I already am, I'm imagining it with, like, Chevy Chase as you in the movie scene of it a guy. Yeah. So I, I go to I meet her last night and like the first thing she says to me is, do you laugh? My daughter, she's like. And I'm like, is there like a sniper that will take me out if I hesitate even a second? There's only one correct answer. Yeah, I'd say yes, of course. She has come here and she and she gives me the warmest hug. She was so sweet. She is such a sweet woman. But so tall and, like, literally like like just how did the how did Germany ever lose the war is what I think. Like she's, like, towering over me. And she calls her daughter tiny because her daughter is only five foot nine. So. Precious. I say. Thankfully, I'm taller than her daughter, but not taller than than than uma. That's awesome. Anyway, let's talk about the holidays. I was going to say she's staying for the holidays. She's staying for Thanksgiving. That's exciting. So. And my think so. My girlfriend's having Thanksgiving. This is going to come out after Thanksgiving. So everyone have already survived Thanksgiving. But we're recording this right before Thanksgiving. And, my girlfriend is throwing Thanksgiving at her house. And my mom is invited. And my sister, her mom will be there. Her family, my family, and then her friends. Because my my grandma, anything half assed, like she has to invite the world to everything she does. That's really nice. So it's so nice. I mean, she throws these parties for her friends. She really is, you know? But I feel like I need a shit talker. So that guys don't, like, seek her out, try. To steal her. Yeah, I know, I mean, I know. She's in love with me, so I'm going out. I know it's already dangerous, but I have my son for it. It's like such a blended family moment. And this is my first blended family moment. That's exciting, I know. I mean, hope you don't fuck it up. I think I might start, I'm a little nervous, a little nervous, but it's so weird to me. It's like this new chapter. And so it's what I really wanted to talk to you about this because there's so many layers. I think, to co-parenting holidays. And there's the bit where it's what is your document say, who gets it when and whatever. Yeah, but that's like the cold way of doing it. What's, you know, how can it be done. Yeah. So what do you do. So what do you do. Like what is your overall holiday. Kind of what. Is our. Arrangement. So we did mediation. We didn't do like a regular divorce. We were you know, we're broke. And like the mediation was like, well, can you suck it up so that we can not spend multiple thousands of dollars on this? And we both agreed that we could, and we just said, like, yeah, we share holidays. Like, that's why our, our agreement is so vague, but what we intended for that is that we'd be together for them with the kids, you know, because that's that's the most, I just can't imagine, like, one of us having them or one of us not having them for the holidays because we both want to be with them. And I'm sure. That every holiday. Sorry I interrupted you. Would you go ahead? I'd like to. I know you don't. Yeah. Don't yell at me. Please don't yell at me. It's it's Thanksgiving and Christmas. Like, those are, like, the only two we really care about. So you share Thanksgiving? Really? Well, for the past two years, he decided to go to his girlfriend's father's house. Her parents are divorced and can tell us ahead of time. So it was like that was a lot of ugly. That happened for a moment. Yeah, because how do your kids take it? I probably am way more hurt for them than they are. Yeah. Yeah, that's I mean we, we so preemptively worry about that. Yeah. It's just it just depends like there's a lot of things that like I pre worry about that. They're like I don't care. How we talk. You like. It's fine. But that's my role as a mother. But this year we asked them what they wanted to do because you know now that like if it was just the three of us, like there's lots of I mean, I normally made Thanksgiving every year like I did Thanksgiving and like if there were stragglers in the city, like they were welcome to come, it was just like always us. We should have like it's the holiday that I reclaimed from. Exactly. Because, like, I hope they're not listening. I love cooking and I'm good at it. I why should they not know that? Did they take advantage of you? Because they're not good at. Do they think they're good at it? I can't say they like what they like. I like what I like. So, are you good at cooking? Are you good at cooking? The things that. I'm so good that when I hear parents say things about their kids, like they just, like, poke at what I have put down in the front of the plane that I don't know in front of them. Then I think to myself, well, my kids tell me they think I should open a restaurant. So, well, you know, and by the way, there's truth to that because I am, I as I've said. Before. Here I am, I am to food. What you know, I don't know Stalin was to Russia. Yeah. It's just like I just, you know, I just there's no way for me to finish that metaphor intelligently, but, like, I'm awful at it and I hate it. And you can taste the hate. You can, you know, you taste the love I do hate. Yeah. And, but I love making, like, pies and baking. So my baking always tastes good. But I hate not everybody can do that. Even people who are good cooks can't do that. A lot of cooks have trouble baking because they are artists and they like to do thing, you know, they like to. I, my mother, cannot bake because she doesn't think that following a recipe is as important as doing what feels right. And I'm like, mother, it's science. What? Where? Yes. If you follow the rules, I'm the kind of person who will look up what? How much a pinch actually is. I want to know how much a pinch is. You tell me to pinch salt. How much is a pinch? I need to measure that pinch. I don't I'm not just going to pinch this kid tastes like crap. No, you got to do it right. Well, for, Yes. And you're going to send me on that? It does have to be sync. So my kids do like what I make. They they are good, but but the, you know, I reclaim Thanksgiving because I don't like their cooking. Be, you know, there's a lot of them. And like, they're in Pennsylvania. Who's them? And this is mustard, like my mom's family and my, my sister. And so when you say they're bad at cooking, you're talking about your whole family. The only people who would be doing the cooking. Also, they live in Pennsylvania, which I don't know if you know, it's like the capital of mayonnaise. And I do like mayonnaise. I'm not opposed to it. And it's I hate mayonnaise. Like when they're like, oh, for a while my kids didn't eat meat. My son didn't eat meat for like six years more. Maybe my daughter only eats like white meat, like it's not a red meat. And so, like, we would just stick to the vegetarian stuff because it was easier to. And when you go to Pennsylvania, they're like, oh, we're making plenty of salads. Don't worry about it. That salad is not what you're saying. No, actually, I do know what they are. Those are mayonnaise salad. Potato salad is considered a salad. And, you know, you're like, I don't think the salads have more carbohydrates than the than the actual, like, fries. And no. That can exist on its own. Like, it's always in a cheese sauce or like a can of mushrooms or like it's just and I don't I'm not saying this to be snobby, it's just not what I prefer. It's overwhelming to me. It makes me feel sick. I, I'm saying it, by the way, to be snobby. Just so that everyone knows like I, I seen what that and I eat, I eat awful stuff. So I'm like, I'm not like I'm not snobby that way. I just say own it. I just don't like when people call it salad. It's not. It's not. Salad. Ambrosia is not a salad of any like it's jello. Like you say, the brussel sprouts, for example. Like you would never recognize the brussel sprouts that look in whatever the Brussels sprout dish was. Or like broccoli especially, always has a cheese sauce in it. And I am a roast the broccoli in that oven with olive oil, salt and pepper and garlic and like, like it's like beautiful and simple and let the ingredients shine. We're getting off tangent here, but perhaps you can. No, no, no, this is this is, this is this is very important. This is a holiday. This is a holiday conversation. It is like really specific. It is because you what you run into a lot of is the things that you would put up with when you were married. You don't have to put up with any. Yeah. And these like different culinary needs, you don't have to put up with any more. And I find that like that friction starts happening a little bit more of like, oh, well, what are we going to have? What would you like to know? A fun thing that I, put a post-divorce fun thing. I know we talk we don't really bash our exes on this, and we shouldn't because. I will not bash my ex because I know she's listening. This is not my. I am a very good cook. Yeah, my ex, his new girlfriend. I think maybe struggles in that department. Oh, and I think that that's so hard. I so hard for her. I'm sorry. My heart's going out there. She's very young. She has time to learn. You know how how young is. Yeah. Now, not so as young as she was when they first started dating. Is kind of how time works, but. Yeah, but she. She's 16 years younger than him. So like she. Is. Thank God you finish that. You're like I thought she's 16 is what I thought you were. As a teenager. She has a lot of room to grow. She needs. I'm like, she's got time. 16 years younger. Wow. Well. I just, I, I know for that she's not great at it, so I what for this Thanksgiving I asked my kids what they wanted to do. My daughter said that she wanted him to sit and like, have Thanksgiving. So we're going to have this Thanksgiving. He's going to be here was probably our last Thanksgiving as a family of forever. Oh, no, you don't know that. Oh, I know you'll be a family of five, probably. At least now that they'll have a, you know, woman in their life that's the same age as they are. Well, and I, on the one hand, like I do, really understand that he should probably spend some of holiday with his girlfriend's family if it's serious and like if they if there's a this relationship progresses where it looks like it's going that is going to be the expectation. But also these are your kids. That's so hard though. I mean like it's I think it's almost harder for you in a way because you've had such a kind of positive relationship. You don't. Yeah. To have all those lines. And so you just end up having to compromise a lot. And that just takes work and energy. And it's funny, there is just something, even though I think it's better for the kids and it's better long term and all of that, but it just takes energy to, yeah, constantly compromise rather than just have the every other week, every other like my girlfriend does every other. She's like. She's my best friend has that too. Like she and her her ex, they swap. They swap holidays by year. So like one year she'll have him Thanksgiving and not for Christmas. But it makes me so like, I don't know that she's sad because she enjoys the time alone, but it makes me so sad to think of that as like and, and if I were in that position, like, I would be so sad to be alone on Christmas. Like, well. To me it's funny that you put Christmas and Thanksgiving together and I, I don't put those together. Like Thanksgiving. We alternate. Christmas is different. Like to me, Christmas is. Due for Christmas. While we, So, he wakes up here. They everything changed once he found out the Santa Claus. Truth talking about. Oh, sorry, I don't I don't know, I know a lot of young, young kids listen to this podcast, so maybe I shouldn't say anything. Listen, Santa Claus in real, live in my heart. So? So for Christmas, every morning he wakes up, he does, couple of presents here because he just can't stay overnight with her, because of her health issue. So he always wakes up here. And then I gather him and we go over to to her place, and we we do the rest of Christmas there for a while. She's better now. And so the last Christmas she was able to come to the house. Thankfully. And so he woke up and we were. And she was the stairs. Yeah. And we're going to just continue to do that. That's what we do too. Like their dad comes here for Christmas because I in brings his dog now too, which makes it even more fun. Everybody enjoyed giving the dog a wrapped stick last year. Most of all, neither of us are religious. Our kids aren't religious, so we would have, like, Chinese food and, like, order get Chinese food from like, Sunset Park and Brooklyn and bring it home and have soup dumplings and watch, it's a Wonderful Life. And it was like the favorite. So the past couple of years, it's just been me, me and the kids during that, just like maintaining that tradition. My daughter likes things to be the same. And so we've been doing that. And then he comes over on Christmas morning. Like, I'll text him when the kids are awake and they're, you know, they're teenagers now. So, like waking up, it's so different. It was a lot harder. Yeah. Before he knew about Santa, it was a lot harder. Yeah. Because you the you know, you can't really. It's just so hard to switch. He's only ever lived in this house. It's like, you know, I ended up with the house. And so, like the sense of, you know, this is where Santa. And how do we do this even about Santa? Like this. This is where Christmas happens. Like, yeah, you know, I know that's like one house versus the other house. And like, this is very much home because they've only ever lived here until like, you know, he got a place and like now they it actually breaks my heart a little bit when they refer to our addresses, like when they're talking to. Oh no, this is home. I know this is say like I'm meant, you know, in the name of our street and. Yeah, are there at this, you know, the history. And I'm like, it's yeah, it's home. But that that's where Christmas happens. And I'm also the one who like not that he, he, he gets a lot of presents that are unique to him. And yeah. So what happened there, what happened there. Because it's like that also happens where it's like it's the present kind of card. It's not a war per se, but there is a sense of like, what am I going to give? Versus what are you going to, you know, are we going to work together? We going. To collaborate. Yeah. Okay. You collaborate. Yeah. And you know, we, you know, we definitely talk about it. And even with like what the other one wants from the kids, if they ask like, well, we'll let you collaborate with each other to say to like make suggestions. So like if our kids are like, oh, what do you think dad wants for Christmas? I don't think my son has ever asked that question. Because he's a boy. My daughter asks. Yeah, I don't think he cares what I want for Christmas. He's like, what all you want for Christmas is the give me more Legos. He's getting to an age right here, but you should make him think about what he's getting for other people. This is an interesting point. So you you kind of collaborate to get your, when even when it comes to what the other what the kids will get each other, get their other parent like you would give it, like, would you go out with your kids to buy the present? They're going to give it? Oh yeah, I bought it many, many, many, many, many times. To I had to nip that in the bud, because my ex gives such awful presents to me and always has that, like, you know, like she gives me things that she thinks she gave me, things that she thought I needed, not what I actually wanted. So I got a lot of, like. I have a mother like that. I mean, like, she got me a backpack one year that like, you know, because I commuted and like, oh, I know you like backpacks rather than, like, over-the-shoulder bags. And so I got you this backpack. It was like this big. It was like a little, little like small. The back backpack, like. I have you. Oh, it was on purpose or like. Oh, on purpose. She thought it. No, she thought it looked cute. I could fit this in, like an Amazon. Error or, like, I don't know. No no no no, no, she's looks like her. Her esthetic has always been, you know, it's got to look, you know, looks great. And then function is second. So it's got to look great. And so like our house always looked great until you sat down. And then, you know, you'd realize that the chair itself. You fell through the. Yeah. Like me them it was like, do you ever see the Noni Sketch? And on Saturday Night Live where it's a sketch with, like, Fred Armisen and Maya Rudolph, and they played these, like, Swedish people named Ngoni and their furniture was always incredibly uncomfortable and impractical and like, weird. That's our house are said like like weird, like, you know, Nordic chairs and stuff. So she would get me these presents. There is an art like, not everybody's going to I'm not great at it. My daughter has the gift. Her grandmother, my my ex's mother who has lung deceased also had it. She just like knew like oh like even if it wasn't something that you'd ask for. Like she was really good at knowing, like, oh, she'll love this. I looked forward to getting gifts from her and like, my daughter's like that too. I don't have that. Yeah, my my dad had that too. I don't have that either, but I do. My my answer is always, all right, let me find out. Like that's just like the one I grew because I grew up with a mother who never actually got me the things that I wanted. It was like, oh, exactly. Yeah. All I want to do is get you what you asked for and like, yeah. Why is that so crazy? And so I've had to ask. I'm like, when my son now talks to my mom to buy me a present because my mom has a better idea of what I actually want. Well, that's very good. Yeah. And but the other flip of it is that my ex wants me to advise him on what to give her for. Oh, yes. Yes. And I'm like, well, that's. What we do. That's what I'm, that's what that's like how it comes out when I think it is a good and generous thing to do to for your child to help. No. You're right. Well, here's like, what you could do, like. And if it isn't even something specific, like if you just want to give them the tools, just be like, well, what do like let's what is it that she likes doing? And like, you know, you name the things that she likes doing like, oh, maybe something with drawing like whatever. Like that's something that I like doing. So sometimes I get art stuff for my kids because like, you know, that's an interest I have or, you know, whatever. Oh, I like that method because that wasn't, that was, you know, it was more like, I would negotiate. Well, here's the question, though. Am I supposed to buy it? Yes. So I was buying. So I buy his present for. Yeah. Until he has a job. Yeah. I buy it for. And like in that thing you if you're talking about price limit they're like that's a, that's a perfectly reasonable thing to set for him. Like say like you can spend up to this amount of money like I know my X does not set any kind of limit. And so they get me a lot of stuff. I mentally set a limit. Which is sweet. Like you guys, man. You're like, you're like, not even human. How well you guys function. I'm like. Like, I'm. Just this emotionally dysfunctional. That's how I, I guess men. It's so funny though, because I really did like after at a certain point, I kind of chafe against being the one to buy the present. Here's the thing that I would think of it as like, do not think of it as you are getting a present for your ex-wife. I would say you think of it as teaching your son to care for other people. Like, honestly, I was it's really enjoyable watching your kids get to the age where they like to see the reaction of people. Yes, who have gotten they've gotten a present for, like, open their gifts and like, love it or not, like and at a certain age like that becomes more important depending on the child. But like the kids, more important than whatever they're getting. And like if you foster that feeling in them, you're getting just making a good person. Like, so don't think about it as something you're doing for her. It's you're doing something for him. Okay. All right. I think about it that way. You're are. And there's just some of it where it's just like you have to disentangle different things. And that's it's tough to disentangle. Well, how long does does your share day last on Christmas. Because for us like, he's like we clean up presents and like he'll probably eat in the afternoon and go, do you know if she's in town? Christmas is a big deal from when I was little. And then so Christmas is not a moment or even a day. Christmas is a week. And it involves all these different activities. There is, which is what made this more difficult for us, because it isn't just Christmas morning, it's it's Christmas, you know, going over to my parents for Christmas dinner. It's the night before my cousin throws a kind of like a larger family party, and we go and we're around the cousins. We always do the tree on a certain day. We always go, like, so many tradition. Yeah. And so when you, you can't share every tradition. No. And a lot of those traditions are my traditions. They're not even my ex's tradition. And, you know, she is at a disadvantage because so much of her family doesn't live locally. I think there is something to and as a I will say, as a woman, I tend I mean, no, as a me, I tend to get sentimental about certain things that maybe not everybody would be sentimental about. But I'm sentimental. We're all sentimental. Yes. That's why I amended my statement. But I get overly emotional about certain parts of it, and I've had to work really hard on like it doesn't have, just because it's not like it was before. Yeah, doesn't mean that it won't can't be good again. So like, I try really hard on like going to pick out the Christmas tree if it's just me. And like, sometimes my son doesn't even want to come because he's, like, doing something else. So like, my daughter and I will do it. And like, we make it fun for us. Like. That's a great example. I mean, I like it's so true, the thing that like I had to do over the past, what, 4 or 5 years is you just you're creating new traditions and embrace that. Like that. I embraced it like he goes with me. We go to the tree farm and we pick out the tree and like we do all those like, fun stuff and, you know, he hates he won't help me trim the damn tree. And it gets me so annoyed. I wanted that to be the tradition and he won't do it. Oh, I don't want to trim a tree either. It's sticky. It's not sticky. It's fun. So I do. You say tree feeling? What do you mean? What do you mean? Like cut the branches off? No trauma treatments. Putting the. Treatments on. Got it, got it, got it. Got. No, I'm not saying he doesn't want to, like, shave the tree. I know it's nice if it makes you feel any better. My son doesn't want to either. So here's. Would you like to know what we did to the. Oh, yeah. What did you do? What did you do? So, like, my daughter and I will do it. Even when I was married, my ex wasn't particularly interested. So there were like just there ornaments that we would save. So, like, they would do there. So like it's you're still participating and I like if they don't want to do something like forcing them to do something, does that make it more fun? Oh, that was a surprise. There are these little holiday, little holiday landmines that yeah, realize you have and you keep stepping on them the first couple of years especially. And one of the big ones for me were the ornaments, taking the ornaments out that first Christmas and realizing that half of these aren't mine. And yet I still really care about, I know, and I have to like and these over or the worst are the ones you buy together. Like we would go into the city every year, like we'd have a little ornament, where we would go to ABC carpet. I don't know if you know. I know, yeah. No, no, no, they've got great ornaments. And so it's like, you know, it's like it's like a very Christmasy place. And, we would buy these ornaments and those ornaments cost a lot of money. So we would save up and buy like one ornament. And, and so we have like, it's like our every year of our relationship is there in ornaments. And how do you split that up? You're going to make me cry. First of all. I know, I know, it's making me tear up, but like, it was. So I didn't expect it. I'm not going to cry. Hold it together. Hold it together. There's a card of stupid CVS. Frosty the snowman ornament was like 1996 on it. Like, we literally bought it at the stupid CVS when we lived in Bethesda. And like, it's still in the box and that one's hard. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it's it's funny. There are ways in which, you know, I, you're wall certain things off you don't you want, especially if you're the one that's moving on a little faster. I'm the one who's moving on a little faster. So difficult that is. And I over go overboard in the other direction, you know, sometimes. And sometimes colder than I should be. And, you know, it's such a hard thing to navigate. How to just emotionally handle post divorce. But the ornaments, there is no like, it's sort of like, I don't know, splitting up your furniture. But even that didn't matter. It was like the payments are so personal. And there's so it's like even more than the I'm trying to make you cry, but like, this is this. I'm actively trying to make you cry. I know, but, you know, it's it's weird because I had handled the photo album and, you know, that was something I was prepared for. And I had just forgotten that ornaments are just another form of of. Yeah, memories. Of of not even one memory. It's like your relationship and you can hop from ornament to ornament and move through time and and that that was definitely that was tough. And I'm at the point now where, you know, there's certain stuff we just got, I gave back certain stuff that I don't take out at all, and certain stuff where it's just like, you know what? I'm just going to own it and be like, you know what? This was a nice memory, and I'll keep it. Yeah. Like, you know, it's funny that we're both getting emotional about thing that we both wanted our marriages to. And I'm like, I know. You know, like and I. Think that. It's it's funny. It's not funny. It's it's interesting that you get emotional about it because it is like a grief process. Yeah. It's it's still real. Like it's just because you want it to end. Does it mean you can't mourn it's past? Yeah. So I try to think about it like, it's one of my grandmother made lots and lots and lots of stuff. She died at 99. She lived long, wonderful life. But she and her later years, she was a beautiful seamstress. And like she could, she was an artist and they could make anything. But in her later years, like, she lost dexterity, but she still made stuff. And they're these terrible. Terrible. Like, bills that she made that I have that, like, now I can look at them and, and kind of laugh about like how, how the a she had 16 grandchildren and she still gave us stuff into, well into her 90s, which was phenomenal. But now I can look at them with like a sweet fondness about her. And I hope to get to that point like I'm closer and closer and closer every year for us. Like, you know, I'll still set aside his, because one Baltimore Ravens ugly snow globe, ornament that like, I'll set aside for him to put up. Like, when he comes over, like, you know, on our tree. That's so nice. Yeah. But it's. Yeah, it's a it can be a landmine. I know it's. And also because my, my ex had really good taste. I mean, it wasn't always functional. Yeah. But it was always good taste. It looked good. So it looked good. Like I would say that the quality of my tree has gone down like it doesn't look as good as it used. If the only thing. What is nice is when you get to like, not have to compromise on certain things. And like she always wanted white lights on the tree and I am a colored lights on the tree. Got it. Just like color. Because my favorite thing to do is at the end of the night, turn. The lights up. On the couch and stare. I mean, I know I'm not saying anything. Every other person listening also doesn't feel but the colored lights that goes directly to my child. So I can sit there, there and I can be ten years old. Can't wait to see what I'm getting the next morning for shame with the white lights I didn't. It was beautiful, but it was different. It was. It didn't connect to my chart. Well, and I'm like your wife. Like I'm a I'm a visual snob and I really loved white lights. But the same thing happened. Like, we ended up getting colored more and more colored lights and like, the thing that I always want and I can't look up, fantasize, like looking through catalogs or whatever, I'm like, oh, we should can all by train. We should do a theme and it should be beautiful. My daughter's like, that's not Christmas. No, that's not Christmas. What is it? What are you that. What are you, the neighbors from Christmas vacation? No, no, no, I know I would much rather have a live squirrel in my house than a white tree. It looks so pretty. No. God, you know, I, I, I have a one friend who is incredibly wealthy, so he will be my friend forever. Great. But, he has a giant. How does he need it? And scruffy, I know. Well, he just got married. Oh. He has enough rooms in his house that he puts trees up at. Different. Yeah. That's a suburban thing I hear. Like, people put trees everywhere. You can have the big tree. The regulatory. Yeah. For for his daughter and everything. But then. He can never have a beautiful, cool. Tree. Yeah. The beautiful tree. That attractive tree. I was so funny. I did not expect to go down this road with this conversation at all to. Get emotional about it. Well, I just wasn't even thinking about it. We were just talking neither. Suddenly I start thinking about that and I'm like, it. It's so interesting, the landmine part of it, because you're just so busy trying to logistically make things work, and you think about your kids so much during the holidays, like it's for that. Yep. And you forget how much of it is really for you. I think the thing I forget is that these traditions are more being, they're more malleable for the kids and getting formed. Yeah. You know, we're the ones that really have the, you know, the set in stone tradition that we want to keep going. I do worry what's going to happen. Like, my kids are seniors in high school, so they're going to next year, they're going to be away. And like I worry now, like I assume that they'll come back to me. I don't know, like after like for holidays or whatever. Like, are they going to go to their. But I don't know how will be and I like. That's. It's hard but also like this year has like extra pressure because it's like it's the last two every they're. Coming back I know they're coming back. I know that. They want to eat well. They're going to come back for the food. That they do and that's fine. And like my daughter will definitely because you know, she like talk about traditionally the girl loves things to be the same. But the thing that I like, it's not yes, they'll come back. It's never going to be. Not the same. Yeah. Not the same. I mean I almost, I almost feel like we get a little bit of a head start. To me, I'm realizing that will never be the same. Like we had to deal with a little earlier than maybe. Yeah, the empty nesters that are having to deal with it, you know, just as our kids leave. And I think that maybe that's what's doing me a lot of a disservice with our relationship being so focused on maintaining things for our kids, how they have always been like, so I'm just getting to the point. Like it's, again, empty nester. I was like, or future about to be empty nester, realizing that like, there's a bigger change coming than the one that we just did. Well, I think you're going to have an amazing holiday. Mostly because you're going to eat like. We eat like. Kings and queens. You know, if we haven't for the past couple of Thanksgivings, I haven't cooked. I've done, like, mix of, like, cooking some and like, having one year where I'm like, I don't feel like it. I'm going to do like a catered one and like, you know. So I did Williams-Sonoma does not sponsor this podcast, but if they'd like to, they can I did like a Williams Sonoma Thanksgiving where like they, you can order everything and like just delivered to your house and like, you throw it in the oven and it's a and I was like, I don't feel like doing things. I'm busy like my job. But this year I'm going to do like the real the real deal. Well, this is your sales pitch. Yeah. This is the comeback. Next year, this will be the one where it's like, we're going to have such a good holiday that you're not going to want to go anywhere else. Yes. And my son has a girlfriend now who's like, you know, they've been together for, I think like six months, which is for high school, super serious. Oh my God, that's that's married. But that's like another like realization that I'm having. It's like, these aren't mine. Like, these are my people, you know? Wow. I mean, oh, God, you're right. Kids are your own. But, like, this is like, you're not raising children to just like and be with you forever. Like you're raising children to go out and have their own lives. And I think about how I am, you know, with my parents, like, I. Mean, I have I have spent some form of my holiday almost every year with my, with my family since I was born. And so, yeah, so, so I mean, so it's possible and like. Yeah. And part of it is because they created a place I wanted to be totally hollow. Yep, yep. Yeah, yeah I think you're doing that. So you know. Okay. That makes me feel better. No, no you are you are you. It matters because, I mean, your daughter is already kind of giving you that signal, but it's like you create something that people are going to, your kids are going to want to revisit. And it's not a time of strife. You've made it a time of unity. You've made it a time of excitement. Everyone's welcome. It's all warm. They don't have to get the pit in their stomach that I think some. Yeah. For you know, some childhood divorce especially have. Yeah. Get around the holidays where they're forced to choose and stuff. That's what I wanted to make sure we were doing is like I just wanted to be happy about this. Hold it. Feel like he has to worry about anything? Yeah. I mean, that goes back to like, the what? Like why we get presents for each other to like. Yeah. You know, like, I still give him something like, it's not like it used to be, like, you know, I'm not getting him a new computer. For Christmas. But, like, how. Good. It was just his 50th birthday. And, like, I got him a 50th birthday present, just like I want my kids to see that now. It's so funny. Like, I push against that sometimes. Because I'm not thinking about it from my son's point of view, thinking about it from just like, you know, it honestly makes me guilty, makes me feel guilty because I'm the one that wanted that. Yeah, yeah. But if what you're teaching in is, like, the mother of my child. Yeah. Deserves this too. Yeah, you're. You're right. Oh, man. By the end of this podcast. Randall, he's such a better person. I don't want to. Not that this. Is. This was this was a very Oprah episode. Maybe I didn't, you know. But you know what? It's it's. I think I'm glad we did, because, you know, this. I needed to talk about this kind of stuff because this has been sort of in, you know, I'm going through co-parenting. We're trying to get back to this place. It's so hard. I'm sure a lot of single parents have this issue, you know, divorced parents where it's just like, even when you're being supportive and, you know, we do this to each other where it's like there's always that little bit of that resentment that gets put in there. Sure, you. Don't even mean to do it. It just lives in you. Yeah, I'm angry at him right now, just so you know, like, yeah, it's. Yeah. Exactly like and it gets it comes in. And so it's like, how do you create these moments and these gifts. Things are is a great way to do that where it can be devoid of all of that. You, you know, there's you're just a there's no resentment that just goes into buying somebody a gift unless you buy them a gift that is like, you know, here's the screwdriver, because you never worked around the house when I, you know, unless you did something like that. But if you like, can just give a nice thought, you know, thoughtful, help your kid get a gift, or maybe you get him a gift that is like a way for you to have just an open, you know, baggage free interaction. Yeah. And maybe that's what it's about. The, you know, I talk about in the, you know, other episodes, how we separated once before when our kids were babies and it was way uglier. You know, and I have like, disruptive thinking this is second time. It's been way easier. And now it's been like, you know, four years. So it's much, much easier. But the thing that I learned from that first one, like I was real, real angry, like throwing furniture and breaking and angry, which is not my proudest moment, was small piece of furniture and it was Scandinavian, so I didn't wasn't that happy. But so it was Scandinavian, so it fell apart to five. It that I could then just put back together. You can. Like replacement parts. Is the very nicely it was called a is called a word baby. Was. Well if anybody needs to know you definitely can buy replacement runners for your Eames rocking chairs. Anyway, I learned that the hard way. Yeah. What happened in that first time was that anger just made me miserable. Like it was a it was a terrible thing to not me. And I discovered it. And I had every right in the world to be fury. Sad. I had newborn twins, but cheating was a bit like the anger was strong this time. I knew like it was sad and I was mad that it had happened again. But like I know now from my experience that the only way through this is like finding, forgiveness and then like knowing that you don't have to deal with the bad things anymore because they're not your problem to deal with anymore and like, just letting them go and like, if you can lead, this is going to be such an Oprah thing that I'm about to say, and I apologize. I made everyone get ready. And by the way, everyone look under your chairs. You're going to find a car. Your new car is going to lead with love. Like, even in, you know, times when you're pissed off. Like I said, like I'm talking about him getting emotional about. I'm super pissed off. So. But like it. Whatever. Like that's how relationships go. Like, you don't stop loving somebody that you loved. So like, if you can tap back into that well and want goodness and happiness for them, as somebody who's important to your kid, then I think that's the only way that you can get through it with like, sanity. And, you know, if you're hoping to get to a place where I am like, if your relationship is not this kind, don't and it's fine. And like, there's no danger for me at all. Like, do you need to do what's good for you? But this is what's good for me and why it sounds kind of like idyllic. It's not because of what he's done. It's because of what I've done. Like he's followed my lead, which is amazing. And not to, like, take away credit from him, because I'm sure there's plenty of times he's annoyed at me or pissed at me or whatever too. But he also, like, walks away when I see like I've triggered him. I feel like he'll walk away with like without fighting in a way that we used to when we were married. So it's it really is like it is possible if that's good for you. Well have a happy holidays and you just there. I. Want I hope you. Have a family like. Oh, that's the best Christmas. It sounds me it's the best. My, my cousin throws the best Christmas Eve party. And now we're adding a new one, because my girlfriend is going to do a Eve of Christmas Eve thing that we're invite. So it's like we can you can, you know, log out of it. Oh, I hope so. I just want Pentatonix all week. That's my that's my Christmas music. But I'm super excited. So you have a great time. And I went, I can't wait to go and eat some of your food. So you need to if you want to do a tasting, you can do a Christmas tasting. And I can come and taste some of the Christmas tasting. All right, Scott, we until we talk again. Yeah. Happy holidays. Happy holidays.