Mama Said Knock You Out: Whatever happened to a good, old-fashioned whooping?

Lili and Scott discuss whether it's ever ok to spank your kids. Or is psychological punishment somehow even worse? Plus, Scott begins to wonder if his dad was in the CIA while Lili reveals just how good a liar she really is. 

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Transcript

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Scott. Hi. All right. We never know how to start these things. I don't think anybody knows how to start a podcast. And we definitely don't. I prefer jumping in mid-conversation. Well, we kind of are, because we pressed record right when we started talking about today's topic, which is punishing your kids. And I know everybody out there is like, yes, yes, yes, let's talk about this. This is everyone was like, yes, yes, yes. I think I think they go hand in hand. I think they feel both. Yes, I know, I feel both. But, yeah. So today we're going to talk about punishing your kids. Yay! I'm Lilly, single mom to teen twins father. I'm recording in here, and I'm Scott, single dad to a pre-teen boy. Yeah, it's under the sink. We're two old friends trying to navigate single parenting and spending the whole time thinking, I hope I don't fuck this up. Well, I think what we can talk about today, and, you know, we'll talk about our parenting fails first. Yeah. You know, for mine actually has a little bit something to do with punishing your kids a little bit. But, this is gonna be a nice segue, but we're really we're going to be pro segue ers this week. Well, let's talk about parenting fails. First. Let's get this out of the way because I need a little forgiveness in my life. Please hit me. I mean I'm going to hit you for sure. I'm not. So we talk about punishing kids, and immediately we're hitting each other. What is going on? Sorry. All right. What happens if it's never punished as a child? Like I wasn't it? But go. Oh, man. Well, my parenting fail just happened. And it's funny because all week long I was like, oh, what am I going to talk about? I don't know what to talk about with, like, I'm a perfect parent this week. All you have to do is wait and something will happen. And this, this morning I went to pick up my son because he stayed overnight with his grandma. And, he had played baseball yesterday and he died and he had not showered and he was ripe. And we're we're driving home and, you know, I'm like, in this cloud, it's like a pigpen situation. And I said, hey, you're going to take a shower when you get home. And he's like, no, I'm not. I won't take a shower. And we get back and forth. I don't want to take a shower. You have to take a shower. I don't want to take a shower. Is it because he's already dressed in that? So annoying to take a shower once you're already does? No, no. Entirely because I told him when we get home, I'm going to take a shower first because, you know, I had to hop on and do this podcast and do other things and get my day started. And he hates taking shower second. And so he's like, I'm not going to shower at all if you're going to shower, I'm not showering at all. So he was staging a protest and finally I lost my seat. Right now he's ten, okay, he's going to turn 11 next month. Okay. I lost my temper and I said, you have to take a shower because you stink. Fair. He started to cry. Oh, because, you know, he's like, you can't say that. You can't yell at me and say, I stink. And I felt like the worst person in the world. Yeah. And, we're okay now. But, like, let me ask you a, unqualified therapist's question. Okay? And what did you do in that moment to resolve his feelings? I know the the podcast is called help. We don't fuck this up, but, like, when you fuck up in the moment, how are you handling it? Well, in this case, two things happened. One, he does this a lot, where we get to the point where and it's hard to tell. Did I really hurt his feelings or did he just find himself an out and. Okay, it's hard to tell. And so I took a beat to be like, which is it? And then my next step is, you know what? I always should on the side of caution. You know, I'm not going to assume that he's manipulating me. I'm just going to assume that he is, actually hurt by this. So I apologized for yelling that he's things. Okay. In that case, I think forgive you for what it did. It's. Forgive me. I will say it is very hard to manufacture tears, so I think that. Okay. Fair enough. I mean, beyond, like baby toddler years where they're, like, putting on an act and like, they can immediately stop. As someone who occasionally in my relationship was accused of like, oh, you're just trying to make me feel bad. I would say I, which I had that power, I wish, I really wish I did. I'm it's just like an outburst of emotion, like it's a physical manifestation of a real emotion. Now, whether his emotion was justified by you or not, what are you going to do? Like it is Add like he was hurt by you and you said sorry. So I feel like that was that's not the end of the world. You know I know I just it, I got so angry. Yeah. Like the you stink was angry. Like it wasn't like, you know, you stink like a funny thing. I was just, like, getting mad. But you're right. We're not arguing about this anymore, right? There's a reason. There's part of my head that always happens. Where it's like I'm the dad. Like, if I say I shower first, I shower first. It's not a discussion, right? You know, and that's my dad talking. And which I will, I think dovetail nicely into our punishment conversation. But yeah. But like and so part of me feels completely justified and angry in that moment. But and and part of me also feels there needs to be a little bit of fear in parenting. There needs to be a little bit like it shouldn't be debilitating. This. I mean, maybe every psychologist out there is like, you're crazy. You know, I don't feel horrible. I think I think that, like, that's part of our generation too, is like that instinct for authoritarianism, like it's effective, it's affecting, it is effective. And there's there should be hierarchy and there is order in any kind of group. And then this group, it's like parent child. And it is helpful to have a leader. And for the followers to know what's expected of them and to do so, like in one sense, yeah, like being an authoritarian I it's my I putting my foot down. I think we've all had that instinct. Like dude, just listen to what I am saying. I'm telling you what to do and this is how it's going to be. I think that the way that I just said, dude, just listen to what I'm saying is exactly what I said to my children. Authoritarian, saying the word dude is beautiful. I mean, modern day you're like, dude, do what I say or I'll shoot you in the face, dude, come on man, come on bro. Yeah, so that that is my calming word for me is like when I say dude in that way, do. I it's so funny, man. But I think it's not cool. Like. Right. You're the it's. Yeah. You have that like. And I do think it's a real leftover from our parents and the way that we were parented, but I don't know that that's, the right way that we were. I don't know either, but it's like, I think single parents especially have that problem where it's harder to have authority as a single parent that I think in a way, than when there's two parents, because there's no one to bounce off of unless you were the authority parent to me, I guess. But I mean, for me, the undercut is and I don't want to turn to some giant tangent, but the undercut for me is, as a single parent, especially to one kid, I there's that. He's my buddy and he's my buddy. Undercuts your authority. Yeah. That's super. I think that's just like single or not. I think that with with an only child, that's just something that you that happens, you get into that and so like, you know, so then I react like I did in the car where it's like that's in there to the sense of where is my authority? Why isn't he listening to me? He should be listening to me. Oh crap. I'm mad at myself for setting this dynamic like there's so much happening in a few minutes, and then it all comes out in my tiny little pie hole. As you state one topic that we should get to when I because I think we are friends with our kids in a way that our parents weren't friends with us. Oh, at least like told, we're well into adulthood and like balancing that, am I? Well, I am your friend and I love talking to you. And I love that you talk to me way more than I ever talk to my parents when I was a kid with. But I am the one in charge, and I need you to listen to me. It's it's a it's a naturally, it's a just a natural conflict that that comes about. And, like, I don't know, I don't know. What do you do? Oh, I that's one where I would love to have a guest on to help talk to us about it, I think. Yeah. Please. Listen, if you are an expert and you know what to do, please come in, get in touch with us. We would love to have you on. Yes. This is a and we're posting this stuff on social. There's a way to have this conversation and continue it. You know, please let's have that conversation in the comments. We want to hear what people have to say about this, whether you're an expert or just somebody who has lived this, like the idea of expertise, you know, there's real value in, you know, in volume of data. So like, that's what like a real expert who's really dealt with huge volumes of data, but it doesn't undercut your individual experience. And we'd love to hear your individual experience. We're both doing this for the first time, and no matter how old our kids are, like, he's got a ten year old for the first time. I've got 17 year olds for the first time. Oh. For the first time, man. Yeah, well, well, what? Do you have anything to really directly. Directly related to your punishment? It's just like the age range is different. You know, my one of my kids is a very social, huge friend group, like, going out, doing stuff, which is great. Like, that's what you should be doing as a teenager. But we live in New York City. I mean, maybe your fears are different if you live in the suburbs and you're worried about your kids driving late and whatever, but my particular fears are yours. As a small in my head, small, tiny child out on the streets alone. So your curfew is going to be midnight. Nothing good is happening after midnight on the streets. Get home. I don't know what you're doing. I'm not. I I ask him to tell me what he's doing, and he tells me the plan. Usually, And he's like, he doesn't. He doesn't really lie, which I find remarkable. Well, I that is I mean, that is a win by itself. Parent of the year goes to the one whose kids don't lie like that is I know. And I come by lying naturally. So like, I. Am always super, super impressed when like, they're just they just don't lie. Or to me or it's even the lies that they tell. I'm like, I'm. I'm fine. I'm. Or they're so good at it. You never know. And that in itself is impressive. You know Nick, but he, you know, he had a, curfew on Friday night of 1230, which, you know, I give him, like, the extra half an hour because trains run slow on the weekends and find it and get it that it takes longer to get home. But for the past several weekends, he's had a similar curfew. And like the trains, are the problem of every time leaving his girlfriend's house and friends are hanging out there. It's not that far away. It's in a there are from her very safe neighborhood to our very safe neighborhood. It's not a big deal, but I told him last and he was out of warnings and like at midnight, I check out his little find my phone on my phone and I see where he's just still at the girlfriend's location. And then I see it at 1228. I'm like, oh, maybe he'll be here by now because it's like a 20 minute subway ride. Subway ride maximum. And I see him on the subway station or at the subway station. Two minutes before you saw him, I was like, dude, what are you doing? You've got two minutes to be home. Is it? Oh, I left at midnight, but the train's like, blah blah blah as like, I don't care anymore, I don't care. You're done. And like 1230 at night after a day where I was up since seven working all day, I had lost any cool tool that I had. And generally, like, I'm not I'm a I'm an ex, you know, I try to like, rein in my explosive, reactive nature as much as I can with my kids. Guessing that's it's hard and guilty of it more often than I like, but like, I really try hard, especially when I know it's not. I'm not in the best place. So he just knocked on the door. I totally lost it. And I think that, I, I regret I mean, I didn't scream loudly, but I was, I was just like, laying in there and I was like, this is it. You're not see your girlfriend anymore. You you've done this too many times. You can't be sorry if you keep doing this, like, just all of the things that you shouldn't say in the heat of passion, I just like. And now go to bed. I think it was $20. And as I laid in my bed and I was like, God, you're such an asshole. I can't believe you just did that. Like, you should have been like, go to bed. We're going to talk about this in the morning and nothing to forgive. I am sorry, nothing to forgive this idea that we have to have this perfect standard of always keeping our cool, always having a calm, unemotional conversation about this. Yeah, it's a fiction that nobody can hold to. Yeah. And I think the thing is not to me, the thing is not oh, did I lose my temper and say, say what I should have said with a calmer tone? Yeah. The thing is, don't say the thing. You shouldn't say. Yeah, like that. That's the thing you hold back. You don't, you know, in the hear the moment you don't yell, you stink. You know, that's the thing you don't do. The thing that I did say that I do feel. Oh, okay. There is something in there. All right. It's coming to me now. Like in recollection. I did say, I worry about you even being able to take care of yourself. You can't even look out for yourself. And I was just like, nobody can like it. Just like you. Oh, I once I get nothing to forgive on this one. I really like the fully functioning, like human being. I'm about to be out in the world on its own soon. But like, the thing is, if you were angry about something he did and the calm conversation doesn't have the same umph as the showing. How he made you feel, He came in the door with like, super puppy dog eyes. Like, yeah, because he's because he knows his legs. He knows. And if he came in and you were calm and just said, go to bed. Yeah. Letting him off the hook a little bit. Yeah. He's like, oh, the thing he's afraid of happening didn't happen. And tomorrow we'll have a calm discussion, right? That's true. That's fine. Okay. So I mean there has to be consequences. Yeah. This goes perfectly into our punishment conversation. Yes. So we're talking about punishing today and how we should be punishing our children. And it's such a fraught conversation. We all grew up. Those of us that are I would say Gen X or elder millennials. We grew up with baby boomer parents, baby boomer parents. The way they punished was a way that which now I've heard words like barbaric thrown around and words like, you know, like abuse turn thrown around the way that we were punished. Yeah, well, the fear did keep me in line. Yeah, well, anything is. It's effective. Is it the only thing that's effective which, you know, common the common conversation now is that it's not the only thing that's. Yeah. Effective. But then the question becomes do you veer so far in the other direction that you're no longer effect? Yeah, there's definitely stuff I've got psychologists that they follow on, you know, kid psychologists on Instagram that I follow the way that they are gentle parenting is sweet, but I all I can do is think you're going to make a bunch of little monsters. I think it just feels like that. And, you know, maybe that's our own block because we were brought up and I don't know quite how you were brought up, and maybe we can maybe start that. We can just say how we were brought up. So how like, how were you, how what was your parents kind of ideas around punishment? So I think what worked for me was I had an, there's a big age gap between my sister and my brother, who are six and seven years older than me. So they were very, very close in age. And I said to Middle Eastern father, who was very authoritarian, and my sister and brother were bad. They were bad. They're like no gray area. They're they're just, you know, they were bad. Well, my brother would like, you know, I think the first time he ran away, he was, I think 4 or 5. And he went to the corner with his, like, little bag of stuff, but wouldn't cross the street because he wasn't allowed to. But like that it like it was. And then, like, got hit by a motorcycle on his bike and my like, there was just thing. It was just like everything you imagine all the trouble that you imagine going through with a kid. They put my parents through, I was the youngest and I think innately aware of how to control a human being. So I came along and like, I just was like, really adored because I was a baby and I was like, you know, cute. And I he wrapped my dad around my finger when I was very, very young. And he and I still are very, very close. But my sister and my brother were constantly being punished constantly. Like I remember fearing the belt, which my dad had, like he used to like, take his leather belt and put it in a loop and like, do that snap thing. Do you know the thing I'm talking about? Oh, do I know what my mom went? I love that we were laughing about these, like, terrifying tactics. My mom, with. Yeah, she wasn't she's not a violent person. She's not a screamer at all. She's not. The thing just by nature is not a punisher. But she she sets up the stairs or the wooden spoon, like, kind of half jokingly. My mom did that to the wooden spoon. My mom would whip out that wooden spoon and it would be like a Benny Hill thing was like, wow, look at that. And I would just be running around the house contact if she got you. But like, you ran fast. Oh my. My mom caught me once. Oh, did she like, she caught me once and she did not know what to do. Yeah. Like she like, literally. It's like she stopped up short and she's like, oh, crap. Because I went into a corner and I didn't realize I when it made it right when I always make a left. And she didn't know what to do, she was like, oh, crap. And so she just hit me once on the arm. And that was it. But I actually felt like she had to do something right. She had gone chasing me. She had to follow through. So I never got spanked. I never like I saw what my brother and sister did and I was like, oh, the last thing on earth I want is any of that fire I didn't want to like, I didn't want to get in trouble myself, but I also didn't want to make my parents because, like I was as a little kid, like I, the parents, like, behave in a way in front of their kids that they don't think that they're aware of. I think in a lot of things I know. So like I would see their the, the like as my sister and brother got older, I saw the, the outcomes in my like the emotional outcomes of my parents when they were so upset about whatever, my when my brother stole my mom's car. Like, it's a lot of stuff. And I saw how upset it made her. And I didn't want her to feel that for me. And my, I never wanted to get the belt from my dad. I never even wanted to get yelled at, period. So I did everything in my power to be the good kid. And whenever I was bad, I. When I say I was a good liar, like I genuinely nobody knew anything that I ever did that was bad. So that's not great. I guess it depends on whether or not you think any of your kids are disposable. Like if you feel they did us three of them. That's true. They had three of them. So if they figure out, okay, we've got these two over here and if we can use them to form the perfect child who is the youngest. And by the way, this is tongue in cheek. I realized now that I need to let people know that it's tongue in cheek because they sometimes think I'm a monster, but it's not 100% tongue in cheek, because think of the prison system. Yeah, there's a big argument over what the prison system is supposed to accomplish. Is it supposed to rehabilitate or is it supposed to deter? Yeah, and I would say that it people come down a lot more on the side of deter than rehabilitate. I don't think people really feel that cheap or coming out of prison, rehabilitated prison is there to tell other people, don't do it. And, well, I mean, that's the argument. And yeah, the argument is what is it for? And it's and you find it differently if you have those two different ends you like, support it. I personally feel like it should be for rehabilitation because deterrence only works in, you know, in certain situations. What's funny is your parents are firmly on the side of deterrence, like, right. Like maybe not on purpose. No, maybe not on purpose, but at work. I mean, I did get in trouble. I just think, here's the problem. The other side of that is I did do things that were bad. They just never knew. They never knew. So it doesn't mean like their deterrence didn't make me a better person. It just made me lie to them. And I think that's like a common argument for that. Yeah, that's a great point. Right. Like that's a common argument. Like when I see other like parents of teen moms, like our teen kids, sorry, parents of teenagers, you know, post these stories about, like, you know, I told my kid that it doesn't matter if you're stuck in a place where I don't care if you're drunk. I don't care if you lied to me about it. If you feel unsafe and you're drunk and you need me to come pick you up, or like you worried that somebody slipped something in your drink. And even though you know you shouldn't be drinking, I want you to know that you can call me and I will come get you. No questions asked. Like I am firmly, firmly in the belief that I feel that way too, is how I would want my kids to behave. I was not that kid and there were incidents where we got into dangerous situations, ended up at the hospital. And the question that I asked the doctor, I was 17, my, my, my friend took me to the hospital because I thought I was dying from whatever we had just done. And I asked the doctor, does doctor patient confidentiality apply to people under 18? And the doctor said he does. But I strongly suggest you tell your parents what you what happened. And I said I won't be doing that and you won't be there. Oh wow. I lied to them. Like in the hospital. I never told you the truth. It was probably endangered myself. It's scared. I mean, whatever, like I learned my lesson. But I would hate to think that my kids would ever behave that way. I mean, I'm so glad I'm hearing this, to be honest, because I honestly was on the fence about some of that because it's like, oh, well, you know what? If it, you know, because my, my brother was the same, like I was the one who was punished. My younger brother was the one who, I mean, I would be so mad that he wouldn't get punished, but he wouldn't. But I found out later that he had lied about all of this stuff, and and I, I didn't lie. I told the truth about almost everything. Not on everything. But I also didn't get into trouble really, the way he did. But but like, I but I never really put that two and two together until you just said it like, you know that the environment of fear around punishment. Yeah. The larger cloud of fear around punishment will shape you into someone who doesn't trust. Totally. And so and, and I would argue that single parents need trust in their kids. We all need trust from our kids. Yeah, but we are dead without it. Yeah. Like it just you need them as partners. Yeah. And when you don't have that, trust it. It kills that. Yeah. So I went into parenting with that. That kind of I want to do it differently than my parents did. Like not even I was, I wasn't reading books and I wasn't conscious, conscientious about like, the kind of parent I wanted to be. But all I knew was like, I didn't want my kids to feel like I felt whatever kind of parenting framework you want to call that boomerang parenting with. I don't know what it what it is, but we as well, like when they were babies, like we from the time that they were born, we talked to them like adult human beings, like never use baby talk. They were incredibly loquacious at a young age because of how we treated them. And we were like, the things that my kids say to me now is like, I can't believe how other parents talk to their kids, which is, I think, like laid them base work for the kind of relationship I wanted to have with them, which was I respect you as a human. Yeah, I hope you respect me too. Like I am your parent. Yes, you are my child, yes. But like you are a human being on this planet, you deserves like this base level I respect. So when they were little, like we would get, you know, I was way more of an authoritarian, surprisingly than their dad was. And with toddlers, irrational toddlers, you know, which is the first age, I guess, like you would consider actually punishing before that. It's like redirecting behavior and like you can't pinch your brother's neck twin girl to to, you know, like there was a lot of there's like that that we did then to but you know, mostly it's by the time they're toddlers is when you need to think about like, what do you do, what are the consequences? How do you handle that? There is and there was a lot of, like, kind of old school parenting stuff. We pulled out surprisingly with like time outs go to. And I definitely smacked a hand which like or but like to keep from danger or to like get attention. And my, my ex was I mean there wasn't a fight between us, but he was really rational about it. He's like, listen, I'm not against corporal punishment in general, but if you do it, this is you know, he read a lot of stories like this is the scenario in which people do it. So he's like, if unless we're not doing that, we're not doing it. And I was like, okay, fair. All right. You know, given could that's a very rational way to think about it. Which, which is I think the hard part when we talk about punishment is rational punishment versus irrational punishment, because, you know, that feeling I had when I was when, you know, arguing with my son on the way home this morning that is not just that. He's not that he needs to do this. And why isn't he doing it? It's also why is he defying me? Why is he making my life harder? Why? You know, am I then failing because he's doing this? Other people's kids maybe. Don't do this. What am I doing? There's so much layered stuff and it all comes out. Yeah, through this one thing. And what was interesting. So when I was growing up, you know, my dad would do the punishment and he would never he would lose his temper, but he would never punish me. Angry, right. But instead he would punish me. I would say he would have been a good, like, CIA operative. He would. He would punish me psychologically. He was terrible. And, no, he was like his favorite punishment in the car when I like, when I was a kid and I would be unruly or do something was I had to close my eyes until we got home. So. And he'd check. And so I would have to just sit in the car for maybe it was a half an hour with my eyes closed. What were the consequences? You opened them? He would take something away. But he was also when you. He was very good at setting up this atmosphere of I wouldn't dare open my eyes. And yet he like he never he never, like, spank me in anger. Instead he would treat it like a game show. He. And so he would wait. He would the entire day would be the lead up. He'd be doing the marketing all day for the event. Oh, and he'd be like, guess what's coming up at 6:00? It's going to be your spanking. You're gonna do this at 630 in this year. I know it feels like he was all day long. He had a paddle that said, have a nice day on it. And it was like a hand. He'd show me the paddle and be like, you're going to meet the paddle later today.

Oh my God, it's 6: 28:17

00. And all day I'd be sweating it just be building in me. And, and I'll tell you this, when I told my therapist about this, what she said about it, because I was saying it like I'm saying it now in this kind of admiring way. And then when it came time, it was up to his room and he would be like, he would be like Johnny Carson. He'd be like, this is going to hurt you. A lot more is going to hurt me. All right, Ben, on over. Here we go. Remember, you did this to yourself. This was all something you did. And then he would spank either side of me. He would spank the bed to each side and not actually hit me. And I would, like, be balling as performatively as I could so that, you know, I mean, like, I, you know, it's working, dad. You can stop, you know. Yeah. And and he would, he would spank on either side. He might lightly tap me and then dab it. So and then that actually hit you. He would never he would not hit me like he might hit me a little bit once because he realized that if you don't actually do it, then your threat's hollow. Oh, my. But and what did your therapist say? So my therapist said, wow, you're you're you know, I gotta qualify this a little bit, a little bit abusive. And I'm like, really like. And by the way, I love my dad. He's a great guy. But she said, you know, he turned a punishment into a day long event. Yeah. It's honestly torture behavior when you torture someone. That's how you do it. Yes. You tell them that you're going to come back later with the pinchers. You let them sit with you, leave the pinchers out so they could stare at it all day like it was that kind of behavior. Oh my gosh. So yeah, that was how I was spanked. And, and he never but he never did it in anger. And so I feel like he misinterpreted the kind of advice that people but didn't really mean when they say don't punish in anger. But then my grandfather, my mom's father, he would have me go out and cut the switch. Yeah. So I'd have to go out. So it's the same general idea of the leader? Yes. It just would happen a lot faster. But I'd have to go and cut this torture. Yeah, yeah. Less torture wasn't all day, and I'd have to come back and then he'd switch, but he would spank me with it. He was. He's like, I'm not wasting a good stick. And he would spank me. But you know, I guess that's the greatest generation. And that's how they do things. They make sure that if they're going to, they're like Hedda Gabler, right? You know, if we're gonna have a gun that guns going off. Right. But my dad, like, he was impressionist. He's like Hedda Gabler that that, you know, we're not gonna want to harm the little Scott on that, I think. Oh, my God. And, well, here's the funny thing. My sister was a little older than me, but she's neurodivergent. She's, I would say on the the more stronger end of of, you know, neurodivergent. And so she would not fall for any of it and wouldn't care. Oh. And then and she's just be like, listen, you got to spank me, spectrum, motherfucker. Like, would you just not care? Yeah. And so my dad would, like, spank her once and then just give up because it's like, I don't know. You know, none of my shtick is working. Yeah. I, on the other hand, was like, his perfect audience for it. And then my brother, who's five years younger, never got spanked once. That's so interesting. Because the thing that, you know, I hear other parents do with their own kids is like, like you said, like what happens? What's a consequence? They take something away, which is like a tactic that a lot of parents use because it feels like a the easiest thing that's not a physical punishment, be something that's going to actually hurt them. My children never cared. I was like, I know, okay, well, no iPad, we'll just do something else. And I'm like, this is does not work with them. But is that the consequence of treating them like adults, like, I don't know, I mean, there's a yin and yang. It's like you treat them like they're valued, like working members of your household. Yeah. So does that. You're giving some of the power away by doing that. And maybe you just have to live with it. You say that the takeaway doesn't work. Yeah. I would much rather either give the power away and have like, a team effort, you know, just as a household, you know, your kids are old enough now, my son's getting there. We've I mean, I would say we both probably parented in response to our parents. Totally. I, I have only ever hit my kid out of anger once in my life, and it was because he smashed my fingers in the door and and I because he was like, you know, slamming his door to his room. He smashed my fingers and I whacked his shoulder. Just I was just yeah, he was reactive. And he had like a little panic attack. And he brings it up now all the time. Like, remember that time you hit my shoulder? Yes. Six years ago. He brings it up all the time. But I have so much guilt around that. But that's the only time that I've ever done anything like that, and it's like. So it's like in response to our parents. But now I look at what kind of kid he is, and I'm like, here's my argument this morning with spending. He is a kind kid. He's a good kid. He tells me the truth. He like treats people with respect. Like the proof is kind of in the pudding, right? Like we did it that way. Yeah. And not to say we're awful people. Yeah, but we did it that way. And, you know, the world is not burning down. Okay. Yes. And. All right, give me a yes. And I love it. I love my kids so much. And the thing that I say to people all the time, like, we're going to talk about this in a future episode about rotten teenagers. But the thing that I said about teenagers all the time is I love teenagers. Like, I think they're awesome. I especially love mine. I enjoy the hell out of my older kids. Compared to when they were younger. Like, I really, really, really love it. But there are times when we need to do something like that, you know? What are the consequences when you've created this situation where you've got these really great, great kids, but they mess up or they do something wrong, or they're purposefully hurtful or bad or like, whatever they're human beings are going to, you know, make mistakes like we all do. So what? Like what's effective now? Like, I, I mean, for the 1 a.m., you know, missing your curfew situation like I did follow through the kid. He's a musician. And he had two shows booked I the next day and I was like, you, you're you can get up and you can go to your bandmates and get everything and go to the shows. And as soon as the shows are done, you are coming home. I don't care that it's a Saturday, like, you're not going to get to hang out with your friends afterwards. It's not going to be like, oh, just until 8:00. Nope. You are done. That is it. If in the future, like next weekend, if your girlfriend wants to come over to our house and then her mother can worry about where she is at 1:00 in the morning, it's fine. But that is it. Your new curfew is 11 and like. So I just try to I. And I know this. That sounds good. That sounds like the way to go to me. Kind of. I don't know though, because I know what will happen because I as a parent and as a human being, I do not have those, oh, like, I know I do that too. They follow through is the worst. Yeah.

I mean, I will give him an 11: 35:27

00 curfew for the indefinite future right now, but eventually it's going to be like, oh, can I actually stay? I'm at so-and-so's house and we're doing this and like, we want to finish this movie. And I'm like, fine, right? So I am the same way. And here's how I handle it. And I do think it's true. Yeah. On it. Unending indefinite. Until you've earned my whatever that does that does not work for people like us. I think it may work for some other people, but I think you and I kind of we have a little bit of that ADHD in us. And, and I don't think that works. I think what works is you have three weeks, you know, this very concrete time because then we it's more for us than for them. Right? It's so that we can follow along and know that we're sticking to it. Yeah. No, it's the same as my son is not allowed to watch TV before, you know, 630. Right. Like on a school day. On a school day. Okay. And, you know, he tries to game that all the time. What about now? What about now? What about this? But if I stick to that rule, right. It's clear a very specific rule. It's clear I and I know that I can't and, you know, waver on it either. Yeah. Because it's there and it's in black and white. It's a I mean, it's a it's good like I and I in most things. I totally agree. Like set the expectations, stick to them. They really like rules. They really like staying within their or knowing not enough. They like staying in the boundaries, but like they like knowing what the boundaries. Understand it. Yeah. The problem now is last night after the show, you know, his dad and I were both there at the show, at the last show, and I said, do it. Like I pulled them aside. I was like, and I told him what had been going on earlier in the day, and he was like, very calm about it. And I was like, just so you know, he this is like, he's not going out like it's tonight. It's just like, no deal. Like I don't care what he tries to like pull. And he asks his dad. He's that's kind of a bigger apartment for extra kids. And like a bunch of the kids wanted to sleep over. And it's easier at his dad's apartment than at my apartment. And he asked his dad, and his dad called me that. And I was like, yes, it's okay if people come over. He is not going anywhere. You have to make sure he doesn't convince you that it is okay to go out and get food. It is okay to do this and like that is the big I mean, it's a lot more effort than I would rather have, like working with somebody else and making sure they're on the same page. But like, I think that's like the biggest single single parenting thing is that are the what are the rules in the different houses? 100%. And it's funny, we talked, we spent all this time talking about our own parenting. Who sets the rule here? Yeah. How do you agree on the style of punishment and how do you draw the line especially, you know, you have half, half and half. You have them all week. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I have him most of the time. So like you know it's I and and this was more or less about me and I'm thinking more about my ex wanting to do something different. She has very little power to do it. Like if you are the single parent who doesn't have them as much time. Yeah, you don't want to have to punish them and be the bad guy. You don't want to have to take away their time because sometimes that hurts you too. Yeah. And there's all these, like, how do you get on the same page for the sake of the child, when you don't even agree on why you're doing what you're doing? Yeah. And mine was, like I said, like when we were together, I was always the authoritarian. And he was always the, I don't know what you would call the easier parent. Like the fun. He was the fun parent, too, but, like, he I don't think the fun is the problem. It's just like there was not a lot of clarity around rules with him. And so now that our houses are split and it's like I've got very distinct rules about like when you have to be home after school and you have to be home on the weekends with like, what you know, and with the, with the, the rules around living in my and our house are and he, had a very different upbringing and, you know, his parents were teenagers when they had him. So it was like, oh, wow, he's unhinged. He's whip lashing from a different kind of parenting than I am. Together. We actually did create a nice balance in our kids. Like it wasn't something that we argued about a lot at all, if ever. Yes, I that's a lie. There was some times way I wasn't. I'm like, you did split with me. That is not. There were some art that was not ours. I know I'm just but when you have like the easygoing parent who will, like, pulled out the authoritarian parent that I was, I saw it and be like, it's fine. You can just let it go now. Like, let them be like, that is a nice balance to have. Or me being like, dude, you actually really need to have them hold your hands when you cross the street because I know they're smart and they know what they're doing, but they're four years old, you know, and having that balance is nice. Like we were really complimentary of each other and how like when the compliment sides are living in separate houses and the kids stay at separate places, like so you've got me as the the authoritarian ruler semi not pseudo with authoritarian ruler in one household. And I'm going to edit that I'm not authoritarian. I provide structure there. And so we have, we have the the South American dictator, one and then we have, you know, no collaboration with Wheeling. We have Jimmy Buffett in the other, so and not, like in his house, like, there's not a lot of rules. I think he makes them pick up their seltzer cans, but doesn't mean the recycling like that is the extent of it. So. Well, you know, it's funny, I so I've had this you know, I'm in co-parenting counseling right now, which has been really helpful. And one of the things that he talks about, which I think was really interesting and hard for us to swallow, is that unfortunately, when you are single parents, you're divorced, you're in different households. You have to let certain things go. Yeah, because the minute they they live in a separate country now. Yeah. And you guys can work as ambassadors with each other to try to do what's best for the kid. Yeah. But ultimately, when they are in Lily's stand, they are one way. And when they're in, you know, Sylvania, they are have other rules. And we just have to accept that. Yeah. And it's the hardest thing to accept. And it may make us angry. Yeah. And frustrated. But we do at a certain point have to say this is just reality. Yeah. And it's going to be worse if we try to do it another way. Because at that point, one thing our child is going to realize that they can play us off each other and, you know, and, and but the other thing it's going to give them, you know, it's just it's going to create a situation that makes everyone unhappy. I thought that was eye opening to me. Yeah. Well, and especially for you, like you, you separated when you're when your son was rather young. Ours were 13 at the time. So like, it was a different like there was like just a different awareness and conscientiousness around like what the kids could do in different households, in what ways. And so I, I would imagine younger actually makes it harder because they're. Yeah, it is harder. I mean, I think little kids by nature, this is not an impugning of little kids, but they people have problem with this word. I'm gonna say, you know, they manipulate, right? Like they're they manipulate, they learn your behavior and they know what works for you and what works for your ex and what works in on school. Like it's not. Maybe. And maybe that's not technically manipulation. It's just like learning your environment. But, that is something that I think that if you've got little kids and now two very different households that they will immediately latch on to and they do. Yeah. Yeah, 100% do. And they do as it echoes out. Because what do you do when they're with their grandparents? What do they do with their with their uncle or aunt like, you know, my son spends time with his both sets of grandparents. He spends time with his aunt like significant time. Their rules are different in each house. Yeah. For me, the thing is, if they if he is with someone is on my side of the family, I lay down my rules and I work that out with my side of the family. She works it out with her side of the family. I will occasionally say, hey, I'd rather this. She will probably even less occasionally, but more frequently say, I want it like that. What my counselor was essentially saying is, we need to understand what worst case scenario looks like. Best case scenario is you guys work together and figure it out because you both have your kids, you know, best interests at heart. And I would say 90% of the time that's what happens. It's I think what's it's just beneficial to know that for where is the line, where are the boundaries for us. Yeah. For that other 10%. Well, we got to put we got, you know, this is such a big topic and we'll come back to this later. And the two halves of it, you know, we touched upon how do we punish our children, but we also touched upon how do you get your co-parents to, you know, either align with your philosophy. How do you align with their philosophy? I think this is something we should come back to. Yeah. With especially I think, the co-parenting piece of it, because that's something that I think is a little deeper than we've been able to get into today. But I would say to our audience to that this is something that I think we would love to hear from you on the ways in which you, you not only, handle punishment with your kids, but how do you handle with your co-parents? Yeah, these this punishment. And I would love to hear from you. We'd love to hear it. You know, read it in the comments. Please send, video replies. We'd love to even feature your audio on a later episode. You we are part of a community here, and we are all learning and we're all experts all at the same time. So let's let's talk about it. Sounds good to me. I'd love some advice. So final takeaway. Final last thing, Lily, if you were to do one final take away from the punishment conversation, what would it be? I was just going to say I don't feel like we're in any position to give any tips or advice. I've let I do. What I do feel like is that knowing that we're all kind of sailing together, it just makes me feel better. Like knowing that your kid probably isn't bad. They're just like learning and trying to keep that in mind as you're punishing is maybe the right thing to do. And I'll make an effort to do that myself. But don't listen to me like, tell me your advice is you just wasted 40 minutes of your life. That's your bit. I genuinely think that, like, having company in this sort of thing, like, will give you ideas. It will make you feel less alone and it will make you feel maybe less bad about yourself. I that's what I would come around to, to the sense of, you know, your kids, you're you're that one thing that you do that maybe you're ashamed of later. That one punishment and anger, that one thing that you do that was ineffective, you probably feel like that's going to be the thing that broke the camel's back. And why your kids going to deal drugs in 15 years? And it's not like it is just one little link in a long chain of parenting. And if you're even listening to this podcast, I would say that 90% of those chains are well, well forged. Yeah, I think, you know, that's a good point. Just even caring about how you're parenting, I feel like it's a real step and it really is. It really is. But I would also the other thing I would say is, you know, kind of to go back to the Lily, how you were brought up and honestly, a little bit how I was brought up, you know, the sense, of thinking of punishing your kids. The way we think about our prison system is probably not a great equation. Probably. And deterrence, especially deterrence through fear. A little of it, maybe. Fine. But that should not be the main way you keep your kids in line. Like deterrence through fear creates a lily who is a delightful person but hasn't apparently told the truth in her entire life. Tune in for another episode where I talked about how much of, swindled money from foreign countries and like, yes, by the way, you may not know, but Lily is a Nigerian prince and she needs your help. I've got $1 million I want to deposit in your bank account. It's the information I'm a little scared of. How? Well, you know, the scam actually. Well, thank you guys for joining us. I'm Scott and I'm Lily, and have a great week.