Am I Going To Jail Because I Left My Kids Alone For Five Minutes?

Lili and Scott wonder whether running out to the store without their kids will get them in trouble with the police, and whether parents today are being too overprotective. If the cops ask, though, they were home the whole time.

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Transcript

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Hi, Lily. Hi, Scott. We are two single parents. My name is Scott. And I'm a single dad to a preteen boy. And my name is Lily. And I am a single parent to teen twins. Boy and girl. Oh, and they are have amazing hair. We were just talking about how amazing the hair of your kids have. And my son's got amazing hair too, so I'm just jealous all around. Yeah. Well, Deal with it, Scott. I feel like as my hair starts disappearing, their hair grows in strength. Well, today we are going to be talking about whether or not we can leave those well coiffed or quaffed those, well, kids home alone. And, whether it's legal and whether we're about to go to jail. So, stick around and find out if, we're going to the slammer. I'm Lily, single mom to teen twins father. I'm recording in here. And I'm Scott, single dad to a pre-teen boy. Yeah, it's under the sink. We're two old friends trying to navigate single. Parenting and spending the whole time thinking, I hope I don't fuck this up. We're going to be talking all about whether or not we can leave our kids home alone. As single parents. This is a bigger deal, I think, even than with married parents, because your time is at a premium and you often don't have help. And I know I often don't have help, and sometimes you just need to go to the store and hope that the popo doesn't show up and take your kid away. Yeah, or surprise burglaries or accidental fires or an earthquake whenever they get. Name the circumstance. I've thought about it. But yeah. I, I love it. You know, you're thinking about how the world. I'm just thinking about the popo. I'm just thinking about the police. But that is the biggest fear for sure. Yeah. I mean, society is way more to fear than than the volcanoes. But first, there's something that we, are going to try to do on this pod that I think is really important, especially for single parents, which is we're going to talk about a parenting fail that we had this week, or recently. And, and we're going to give each other forgiveness. Do you want me to go first? Sure. Why don't you go first? You know, I fail a lot. And I think about failing a lot, so maybe that actually makes me a good parent. That attack them. Think about it. But I, recently had a fight with my daughter, and it it wasn't even a fight. My kids are 17 now, and I love teenagers, and I love them in particular, but my, the occasional attitude that comes with being a teenager and gets suck. So for a while, my daughter had been, doing the short called answers, and now it's just like, annoyed with it. And instead of dealing with it because there's only so many times you can be like, hey, can you say that? And I say, hey, can you do this? Hey, it's like I just, I see not responding and just like kind of sir icing, which is definitely a way that, I learned to fight with her father when we were divorcing and was not great. You know, we couldn't recognize the pattern in return, in, in reflection, but in the moment, it just felt like I was trying not to fight like that is what it felt like I was doing is like I am trying not to fight. I am trying to do I don't want to do it. You know, anybody who's gone through a divorce knows there are a lot of years of fighting and then I'm over it. So my son came up to us and he was like, hey, why are you mad? And as it I'm not Matt. He's like, well, you should talk to her because you're you seem like you're really not. And it like, took it took me back because I did. I thought I was just being cool and I thought I was just keeping my cool, but it wasn't. And the thing that sucked is like, oh, what I'm trying to do in this post divorce world is just reset all of those bad relationship habits, emotional habits with them because I want them to have them. But sometimes you see your own parents parenting reflected in your own parenting. Yours and this is like something that I, I feel like I genetically learned. It's just like it's like become the iceberg and it's not great. Like because I said, I'm not mad at her. That can I said back to my son. I was like, I'm not mad at her. What's the what do you mean? He's like, sure seems like as like feels like you're mad. Okay, so but that like. And that's the exact same thing. Like when my father does this, like, I know that. Like, he and my stepmother still fight like they've been married 52 months. Like, like 40 years. And this is how they fight. They literally were just fighting like this last month. They won't speak to each other for weeks at a time because, like, my dad will just ice out and will not give in. And I saw myself doing that and I was like, oh, I suck. I this is so that my. Don't. You don't suck it. Is it God beyond forgiving it is something that like I think I, I can be the same way. It's that, you know, you I think you've, you've mentioned it this way before. When we've talked about it, it's like you forget their kids and you forget that, you know, you're a parent and you fight with them like you're both adults. Totally. And especially at this age, like they're nearly adults and everything they do like I enjoy their company as whole adult beings. And there's stuff kids, you know. Especially with that, like kind of like the needs they have. I mean, if it makes you feel any better when you talk about icing out, you know, my dad, when he would be mad at me, he wouldn't talk to me for months. And I still I still remember, I got a. Child. Well, as a high schooler, and I love my dad. He was a great dad, for the most part. But he had that same issue where he would get his feelings hurt. And when his feelings were hurt, or when he felt like he wasn't getting, you know, listened to a respected or whatever, his answer was always, I'm going to punish you by not acknowledging you exist. That's my my punishment is you don't get to interact with me. That's so terrible. I know it was bad. And I literally talked about this in couples therapy. My my therapist was like, that's called it's stonewalling. And it's definitely not fighting. But it is a terrible thing to do to somebody, you know, like, but I'm really good at it. No. It's like, why are you pulling us away from our skills? I want to go with this. I'm very good at winning this fight because I he both times he did this to me, he did it to me twice. Both times I won. Ultimately, I don't know if it's winning. I outlasted him and he eventually he wanted to be my dad more than he wanted to win. But, it took it. It took time. We were both pretty stubborn. And it's it's the one thing I'm like, I'm not going to do that with my. Yeah, I could do that with my son. I did it with him for one day. You know? You're not alone. I did it with him. Well, I mean, it was. I didn't ignore him. I just, you know, I'm mad at you, so I'm not going to really. Give you the love that. I normally can't give you what I would normally do, which is. Oh, my God, it's terrible. I hear you say it because it's exactly what I do and it's awful. But you know what? You recognized it, I recognized it, you know, I haven't done it since, thankfully. Yeah, but like, it gets into the. I'm like, I'm my dad. Shit. It's what you learned. You've had training your entire life on how to do this. My dad and my brother having a spoken the stone on each other since 1997. 1919 back. In the past century. In the 1900s, they have not spoken to each other, and it was like it was the same kind of thing. I'll say something. Somebody gets their feelings hurt and one of them either said something or did something, but that both of them decided where it is. I'm going to stonewall you. I'm not going to talk to you. I'm not going to give you attention. And neither one of them will give it. And, and at this point, it's like there's nothing there's no going back on that. And that's something that I dearly don't ever want to do. Well, especially, you know, you're a single parent. It's like, I mean, I have an only child, I what am I not talk to my only child like, yeah, I yeah, I mean that that is the props I give my dad in this conversation. You know when we talk about this, he was not willing to do that. His pride was not more important than his relationship. And so that's. Good. He would, I guess. I still can't believe you speak to his child for months, you know, and then obviously, given my family history, I. Know I'm like, you can't believe that. It wasn't like 20 years. It was just months. It's just it's I mean, it's easy. It was easy because his schedule is so crazy. He would leave before I woke up and like. Yeah, it wasn't so bad, though. Like, it's. I mean, especially when you're at. I mean, I'm part of it when you, I don't know if you went through this with your kids and I haven't gone through it yet, but yeah, you can have such an adversarial relationship with your teen kids as it is. Yeah, that I something tells me and I, you know, I could be rough. And something tells me that, like, it wasn't just the D on the science exam, it was the. That you were a pain in the ass teenager. Because I was a pain in the ass teenager. Well, it's not even that. Like, I don't have an adversarial relationship with my kids. And I feel really, really lucky about that. Or at least I don't feel that. I mean, we might feel different, but if. They're like, Jesus, I know, I know, they don't say that. The great thing about trying to parent the mistakes of your kids is like, you're really correcting a lot in yourself. And I think it takes a lot of. Yeah, and I'm not trying to pat myself on the back here for it's this is literally for every parent. When you realize you fucked up and do not want to do that again, it takes a lot of strength and bravery just to not, like, fall back into the habit that feels comfortable, that you learn and you know and try to do something different. And one of the things that, you know, I've forced my kids to do since they were toddlers is to talk about what's wrong. My daughter is the one who is most like me, just wants to like, shut it all down. But it's, you know, it's not healthy like I do, that it's not healthy. And we have an entire generation of people who are our age who have. We're taught the same thing. It's I mean, I feel for, like, our fathers who are never taught to had like my father won't admit that. Like he won't talk to people because his feelings are hurt. That I mean. It's not. Really the hard. It's entirely the hard candy shell on top of the soft, gooey center and like, oh, do they? When I hear about what my granddad did to my dad, it was like, it's amazing. What an amazing dad my my dad end up being cause me or my dad was at dinner every night like, yeah, it tells you the difference between the stuff you focus on and the stuff that's like you can only focus on so much. And so he focused on being there and spending time because that's amazing. The perfect test of my granddad and my granddad lived with us when we were older, and he was a great grandfather, but he was a pretty crappy dad. And he taught my dad to ride a bike by putting them on a bike. They lived in hilly Yonkers. Yonkers is just one hill after another. They're at the top of the hill. He puts him on the bike, he pushes him, and then he goes into watch TV. And my dad rockets down the hill on this bike that he had never ridden before. His dad had already gone inside and he crashes and never gets on a bike again. That's how my sister taught me to swim. There you go. See, that's how we're trying to break that cycle. We are. Well, we break it. I mean, you could argue we've gone so far in the other direction. Sometimes, but. Some of us generationally, yes, I agree. Yes. I mean, we'll we'll talk about that in a future episode. But but it is that is such a great point, though. I, I love how you put it where it's like correcting using these as an opportunity to correct yourself, because it isn't just about how you parent, it's about how every relationship you have is like, how do you communicate in a relationship? Yeah, teaching and teaching yourself to be able to talk to your kids when you really just want to punish them with your silence is a way for you to not punish the next person you're dating, or punish your parents or punish your friends. And it turns out you feel better that way. If I, you know, who knew? Who knew, man, it just, It's so. God, it's so good. Proud that my son came to me and, like, Aiden noticed something was wrong. Means he's, like, emotionally attuned. Be said, you're acting like an asshole. Fix it and see that. Like when my dad. When I, you know, confronted my. And I didn't confront her, I asked her, I was like, you know, is there something going on that you want to talk about? She's like, no, what's wrong with you? And like, we started screaming and crying at each other like that. We ended it really utterly big. I love you, there's nothing wrong with me. We're man, we get this. This happens, that happens. Let's move on. And that never would have happened with me or my parents. Never, never. And that, I mean. So while it is a fail that I acted like an asshole, I think I'll take it as a win. It's a lesson, at least. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't even say you're forgiven because you've already kind of learned. Learned the lesson and internalized it. That's it. There you go. Well, tell me again. You failed. My, my fail was, So I coach my son's baseball team. And, we had didn't have umpires today. It was yesterday. We didn't have any umpires because they're all seventh graders. And I paid 20 bucks to show up in umpire these games. And apparently they just all had something better to do, this Saturday. And nobody showed up, so I had to umpire. And that meant I stood behind the pitcher, and I kind of call balls and strikes. And I have learned that very quickly, that there is no way to undermine yourself with the team that you coach, then to umpire against them and call balls and strikes against them. They started a chant calling, you know, calling me the worst ump in the world. They're like, no, up is blind. And I'm like, I'm coaching your team. He's like, that must. Be. So good for them to be able to talk to you like that. Oh, it's like I mean, it's like tearing up, but that's not my fail. That was just my burden. Like, I'm just sitting here taking one for the team because I'm looking at. I'm like, why didn't none of the other coaches want to do it? Because it sounds fun to go up there and call balls and strikes. And I had never coached before. They had all coached before, so they all knew not to go up there. And, I had no idea. And so they're all, look. There is no. Ump is blind. There's one kid that felt bad. He's like, guys, you know, let's go easy on him. And they're like, nope. He's like, oh, okay, up is blind. Are you taking them out for pizza afterwards or. No. What I did was I didn't talk to them. The rest of them just shut. Not kidding. I was going to say I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, but it is weird feeling because you're. When you're undermined around kids, it's like hard with a group of kids, especially like pre-teens, you know, they're all like, middle schoolers and fifth graders. And I'm like. You don't? Yeah. You have. You lose all your credibility and you don't know what to do. You've been completely undermined. I'm like, I don't know what to do here. Yeah, but the worst was when I had to call my own son out on strikes, and he came because he struck out. And the second pitch, I just didn't see it. And I it looked like a strike to me. And I called it as a strike. And I was told later by my other coaches like, oh, that was cold. I'm like, what do you mean? It's like that hit the plate. That was not a strike. I'm like, I thought it was a strike, but I couldn't see because I'm right behind the pitcher. And so I just didn't see it. Right. And I look like a strike out of his hand. Wait, what do you mean you're behind the pitcher? The catcher. Okay, because. No, no, they don't put you when you do. Coach. The umpire, you stand behind the pitcher because there's only one of you. And so you have to be able to see everything they don't, and you don't have all the equipment on and stuff like that on your head off. So you made a bad call on your own son to. Throw on my own son. And then it didn't strike him out. But then he got he threw a good pitch on the next pitch and struck him out. And, that's what I said. Walked into the dugout. He just stared at me. He just had the thousand yard stare as he walks, just like I have, like, oh man, I'm going to hear this tonight. I said, okay, nice to see you out. Oh, he was he was you know what? He is more he is more adult than I am. He mentioned it once and then he was fine. What a good it was. It was everybody else that wouldn't stop when they all came up behind me then because, you know, they all came out after that. They're like, you cold up, you cold. And they're all like, you so cold. I was. Like, oh my God, I have no credibility with any of these kids. These evil guys. I'm so glad my kids don't play sports. Oh, mad. Totally your fault for making a call that you didn't see. Oh. I know, but what are we going to do? Know that anybody else would have done anything different than that? What's funniest about it is how I felt. Because for I felt like I just lost all control. Like you have. You lose credibility with these kids that you're supposed to be coaching you and put yourself in a position and looking at the other coaches and they're like, yep, that's why I didn't do it. Serious thing. Oh my gosh. Oh, man. Well, I don't know if I need to be forgiven or not or just give me a break. I forgive you, but I'm sorry for, you know. Yeah, I know. Eddie. I'm sorry. Your kids. I mean, maybe you're into sports, but like that, eating up some of the. For the weekend totally sucks. But being in the position to have to cut your son out regardless, like, even if you could see the call and made the right call, that's gotta suck. It sucks. It hurts, it hurts, it hurts. Thank God he got a hit in his next batter. I never would've heard that. Yeah. Well, we're going from, I guess, All right. I have no good segue here. We're just going to talk about leaving those poor kids alone. I felt as alone as my child probably felt when I ran up to the store. Then, that's probably what happened, because we're talking about today. We are mainly talking about leaving our kids when we are, you know, single parents were by ourselves so much. We have so much on our shoulders and often don't have a lot of support, and we've got to run out to grab something from the store. We've got to go get something from some medicine or something or something. There's always something that you have to do, and you feel trapped sometimes, and you make that calculated risk. Especially as a generation who was left alone. Oh, I'm tired. I'm in the car, in the house, after school, down. But being sent down the hill on your bike. Whatever it might be. Yes, exactly. Go play in the woods. I mean, it's a I think it's an interesting, dynamic for us because we were like, well, everything was fine for us. What's funny is the guilt. If you feel guilt, yes. But I didn't really feel as much guilt as I just felt fear of being found out. Yeah, like that was my biggest worry. Was I going to jail? Yep. We lied. We lied for a really long time. When people would ask us where our kids were, it would just be like, oh, you know, martial arts class. This is more so, like, where we would leave them alone to go for coffee at, like at our local coffee shop where people knew us and knew we had kids and like, oh, where are the kids today? We're like, oh, we left them playing with matches and like, make a joke of it. I love it's a joke. Still true though still true and also true. I know they were very responsible. Well, I mean, I think the legality of it is so interesting because I didn't want to know what the law was like. Yeah, I like I'm like, no, if I didn't know, then maybe it wasn't going to apply to me or something. So I never looked it up. I mean, did you look it up? I definitely did, because, you know, you would occasionally see news stories. My my ex-husband is a news reporter. And so, like, we read and we read a lot of the news, and I remember around the time when our kids were young and leaving or leaving them at home safely with each other, they were fine. I remember reading stories where mom leaves her kid to go out at a bar or, you know, something happens, or fire starts or a neighbor reports them or whatever it is. And I remember being really intrigued of, like a am I judging them? Do what? I do the same thing with the fiction. But is she doing anything wrong? Or is it just like because of her race or socioeconomic status, or because she was drinking then it's okay to arrest them. So let me find out what the laws are in New York. Where I live, specifically around when you can leave your kids alone. And it turns out in New York, at least, there's no, like, real firm number. Other states do have ages where it's permissible to leave your kids alone. But, I mean, the way that I thought about it was I was babysitting my infant brother at age ten, and by age 12 I was babysitting strangers, babies and being paid to do so. Like I, I, I met my mentor number that I wanted to get to before I felt I'd be in the clear was like 12 for my kids. Like once they're 12, if anybody says anything, I'm like, come on. Well, that's that's not child's play. 12 I know. So I left my kid alone, you know, to run to the store at like five. Like I didn't have a choice. Legally. They hit 12 and now you don't have to lie about it anymore. And before that, I mean, we were leaving that we we did, like, train them up to being left alone because it wouldn't, you know. Yeah. My, my ex and I separated when they were babies as well. So when from the time they were like eight months until they were two, I was a single parent, then two with two babies. And I don't know if he's ever been a single parent to two babies, but it is not. Oh my God, like it's miserable. Especially when you know when she wants to transition. You're like milk into your bottle, like, and you're out of milk and you need 16oz of milk every year. Okay? So you think. Like, there's no way that I can take two babies out to the store, even if it's a block away. Bundle them out, get them in the stroller, go to the store and, like, get back and have it be any kind of normal parent. So I would yeah, I would, you know, make sure they were in their cribs and make sure they were safe, run to the store and come right back. Or if like I had just finished the milk for their bedtime bottle, I'd wait till they were asleep and run out and get come back. And it was I mean, I, I do know of people who, like, would put their kids in bed and go to the bar across the street and bring the baby monitor and drink, and that is not something that I did, or. I'm judging you just for having friends that did that. My God. Well, it was an acquaintance. She was also a bartender, which like probably says something. Somehow makes it better. Oh, just about the choices she's made in her life. Okay. But, the times that we started leaving them alone, like, when, when, you know, we would go for coffee in the mornings on a weekend and, like, they're watching cartoons, they want to be left alone anyway, and they're like, four years old. They've got the iPad. And we've taught them how to use FaceTime. Like they know that they can get in touch with us. They started eventually asking us, are you guys going to go out to coffee? Are you guys going to go to coffee? Like. And they were perfect. Perfect. I mean, there was nothing that ever happened while we were away so that we felt super comfortable. We were about our leaving our kids. I don't know that every set of 40 year olds or six year olds or whatever. Can. Have the same kind of trust. Well, you trained them, though. We did. Yeah, I. I would almost argue that you train them. You do it little by little. You get them comfortable because ultimately, the biggest issue I feel is not they're going to run over to the oven, turn it on and explode the house. Which is possible. But go on. It. I mean, it's possible. But but they're. Probably not going to happen. It just that's not what they're interested in. Yeah. Once they get past a certain age. Yeah. Like I think the ages you can't do not can't. Toughest to do is like between the age of like one and a half and four is sort of that's when they're getting into everything. They have no sense of consequences. That's where you're really like, I'm sorry, but we're bundling you up and you're coming with me to the bar and you're gonna, you know, maybe I'll get a discount on my beer when they see who I'm with, but, like, but I'm like, once I got past four, I'm like, it's like what? I'm most worried about going to jail and it having some effect on him. Like him feeling left alone or like he can't get me. And when I think about what we have and the ways they can get in touch with us now and oh, I didn't have that. No, we were left alone all the time. And there was, you know, there was the home phone that they could call from a payphone or something. But besides that, there was no way for them to know we were still alive. Would you like to know a sad story? Poor little Lily, who was a latchkey kid. Yeah, I was, you know, I was always the last one to leave the house in the morning because I had an older brother and sister who would go to high school earlier than elementary school, and my mom sometimes would travel for work. But even if she wasn't traveling for work, she would leave before I did. So I had to like, turn off the so make sure the lights are off everything and then lock the door. And as an eight year old, you don't always remember your key when you leave the house. And I remember being in like third grade and sitting on like the front stoop of our house and not being able to get in and not not being able to get in touch with anybody. And, you know, the only phone numbers I could remember were like, you know, home phone numbers. And my mom was at work and my dad wasn't answering. I finally did get through to a cousin who eventually came and got me, he's, you know, much older cousin, but I, I still remember that, like, if you're just not able to get in touch with anybody who's on your own. I was at school, I was in elementary school, and I broke my collarbone playing volleyball. What did they do? They just sent me home. You know, I I'm there like my the nurse just sent me home, and I walk home and my mom's gone. I mean, she was a stay at home mom at the time, but she was still not home. Yeah, sure. And she was gone all day. Yeah. Yeah. And so I sat on the stoop with my broken collarbone. My on my front, not my front porch thing. Couldn't get in waiting. I had to wait an hour. And she finally comes home and it take me to hospital like like you could not get in touch with people like, yeah, it's. Just amazing to me that, like, they get my no, like, contacts to me while I'm in a meeting at work. My, you know, it's not it's not even, it's not even comparable. Like the aloneness that we felt. We were alone and we just separated, like, so it's not even comparable. Even though we trained our kids to be alone and nothing ever happened. Like, absolutely I am. For if your kid is asleep and you need to get something from the store fast. I live a block away from the deli. I live a block away from the grocery store. I know how long it takes me and like the effort involved when they were toddlers are babies made it so that I would just wait until they were asleep and I knew it was safe and I would go and come back really quickly. Nothing ever happened when they were older. Like we would set them up with, you know, Saturday morning cartoons and they would they were great and they were very good kids. So like a we base it on their what we felt about them and what they were capable of. Different kids, different scenario, like totally, totally baseless on your own kids if you feel like they can be alone, great. If you feel like they can't be alone, listen to that one time when they were plenty old enough to be alone. They they were all so my son and, daughter twins. So they were in fifth grade and and New York City, like you apply to middle school. You have and then in the application process like you have to tour these schools and go learn about them as if you were going to college. And their close friend, who they'd been friends with since kindergarten, and her dad, the school, the middle school we were going to tourists, I think, three blocks away from where we live now. And her dad brought her over and the three of us were all going to go together and look at the middle school and like, they're all playing together. Like we were not at all worried about this. We went we looked at the middle school like nobody called us. We walk back in and the three of them were in the bathroom. With all of the first aid things out, and they're like, don't worry, we took care of it. It's so just what. You want to hear. Don't worry. We took care. My daughter has like a cut on her hand and they've, like, gorged it up and like, gotten all the tape and like, bandage everything up. What the fuck did you do? And never in their lives had they ever played with knives like, no, nothing like this. They waited till you're out of the building. And then they waited and like she grabbed a knife by the knife part, not the handle. And like she cut herself. Always my fear with when they were little was that part that like, do you understand the part you're supposed to grab? And we were like, they. Handled. It. They were almost in middle school. So when I tell you I was babysitting other people at their age like that is how old? Yeah. And they handled it like the the friend. Pulled up puppy pictures on the internet and we're, like, swiping through them as my son handled her wound. Oh my God. They handle that like like psychologically as well. So really psychologically like one was in charge of like making sure she was distracted enough and the other is in charge of like bandaging the wound. And it was clearly like, not bad enough to need like emergency care. It was just like, oh, she got cut and it hurt really bad. And they needed a Band-Aid. And we got home. We're like. Why didn't you call us? We were literally three blocks away. You could have called us and we would have come right back and taken care of it, like we took care of it, you know? So that is that is the biggest thumbs up for your parenting. You could give. You know, I don't know when you're kids, I really. Wish no it is no it well caught you feel. Yeah. But you know I don't know when, when what I don't like is when the kids fix the problem in a really crappy way, and then you, like, don't even discover the problem for, like, two months and then, like, you know, something falls off there. Yeah. Something melted inside of the couch. Yeah, exactly, exactly. You lift the cushion and there's like, an entire, you know, half burned toy or something, but like, but like the take, trying to take control and try to handle something. It's it's not a bad impulse. It's just it's just teaching the line of like, well, there is a point where you would have been bleeding too much, where you wouldn't have been able to handle it yourself. That's true, that's true. Would you have called a night and did you recognize that this was handle, or. Did you. Not want to call because you wanted to show you can handle it? I think they didn't want to call because I didn't want to get in trouble because they want that. And that's always it. They didn't want to get in trouble that they don't like. They don't like when they're like, we just don't want to get in. Yeah, I'm not going to pat myself on the back or my kids on the back here. Like they were trying not to get in trouble for sure. But we were like, you know, we're we're touring middle schools. And the very next couple of months, they were going to be commuting by themselves to middle school. Like, I don't think that we shouldn't have left them alone. They're literally about to go on public transportation on their own and like taking themselves back and forth to middle school. It is an age appropriate thing to do. I think that a lot of parents like now don't think that, you know. It is tough. I it's funny because, a good friend of mine is from Finland. We're going to have her on the show a little bit because she does a whole thing. She has her own platform about, self-sufficiency with kids and self-sufficiency because in. Yeah, in her country, they're very self-sufficient. Her kids would walk through Helsinki to go to school at the age of, like, six and seven year. She sent her kids to walk to school. And it was maybe, God, maybe like a quarter of a mile and through other people's yards, not even down like a main street. And she got so much trust from all the other moms about doing that, like, like she's the most negligent mother in the world. And she is like, I trust my kids. They are eight, nine years old. They're not two. Yeah, they should be able to walk to school. I walk to school from when I was in kindergarten. Like walking to school. Yeah, I mean that talk about leaving your kids alone. That's, you know, trusting your kid to get from point A to point B should be the very first level of trust you. And I, because I live in the city. I don't know if this is a thing in the suburbs SEL anymore or not, but by the time I was in third grade, so seven, I was 7 to 8, I think I was seven, I was seven, I turned eight in third grade. I was given that little orange crossing guard thing, and I was in charge of crossing chil other children across the street and making car stop. And we're not trusting eight year olds to walk. Not trust them to walk through backyards. Together. I mean. That's insane. I mean, I don't necessarily think that trusting an eight year old to stop vehicular traffic is. Stuff I know there's that. There's a there's a there's. A middle ground. Yeah. But at the same time I'm like, shouldn't say like, why not? Like it's not. I think we, we infantilized our kids a lot. So like you were and it's not because they can't handle. It's because we're scared. Because it makes sense. Like I don't fear. Have you? I don't know if you've ever seen it. There's a show on, that was a Japanese television show that followed toddlers. Yes, I have seen that show. That is. What is it? Where they go, like, as they go to school or they go to the store. They give them tasks like they give them to literally 2 or 3 year old, go buy the fish cakes. Yeah. And they think they just doing that. I have seen it and it's genius. Yeah. Because it just we've we really it's why I want to do a whole episode about it. Because nobody needs that relationship more than a single parent like you're, you need to be able to have your kids be part of your support system, not in a way that makes I think. We need them to be self-sufficient to. Self-sufficient. That's that's the right word. And I think not even just for I think if you're married, this goes for you, too. Like, I think that we are doing a massive disservice to this generation, our children, by not allowing them to be self-sufficient. What we are, we I think we're dealing with three things. One is we are dealing with we don't trust our kids as much as we used to on purpose or not. I just think that like is what you were saying about, you know, no, your kid. But I would also argue that it's not just about your gut. It's kind of like how when you're exercising, you can work out a little. You can always lift a little more weight than you think you can. The I think your kids can probably handle a little more than you think they can. Totally. So it's like I would say, take your gut and then, you know, subtract a little bit, you know, like, you know, I think your kids can probably handle a little more than you think they can. Yeah. And then I thought, but I also think we are in this. Yes. Echo chamber of fear. As parents, it's everywhere. Like my ring app constantly tells me it's a ring app. It's made for, like, you know, ringing my doorbell. And I'm constantly being told, somebody breaking into this house over here, or is it like, it's just really. Yeah, it's just like just this fear social platform. They've turned it into a social platform that sucks. And, you know, and you hear about, you know, I hear people being like, oh, I don't let my kid walk this school because, you know, they'll get kidnaped. And you know, there's sexual perverts everywhere and there's this and that. And I'm like, I don't think there's any more of that now than there was when we were kids. I don't think it's any worse than it was. I think it's no better. It's definitely. Yeah. We have phones to contact our kids. We're so many ways to keep in touch. Yeah. Whereas I would disappear for like five hours in the middle of the day and my parents would have no idea where they wouldn't care. I don't even care. Like he's coming back. Someone takes him. Good. Like. I think our generation is the reason for that. Because, like, the milk carton, like missing kids, it's like the the sensational ization of, like, the very, very, very rare stranger abductions like the 80s. That was a big deal. And it was a news generator. I think that we are the are as parents are the victims of that kind of like sensationalism. Now. And I think the third thing is that we seem to think that parenting is a sport, that you can win it, and there's this sense of like, am I winning as a parent? Am I succeeding? I mean, it ties into the judgment part of it. I was going to say judging me. Yeah. I mean, it really is that. But like, there is this and maybe it's the town I live in, but there's it feels like parenting is a little bit of a competitive sport here. And when I say like my son does something or handles something like, I can see sometimes the in the parents eyes that they immediately feel like they lost a point. And I'm like, we're not in a competition here. Like we're all hopefully great parents. And you know, I mess up just as much as you do. I succeed just as much as you do. But there's that sense of, you know, I don't know that sense of judgment. Am I failing judgment? Am I failing when I let my kid walk just letting them walk to school? Is that me failing and not do I not care about my kids? Yeah, other parents care about their kids. And that's that to me is the should be the most manageable because you're doing it to yourself. Well, that's it's so funny because as you're saying that it is definitely. I was most afraid in leaving my kids alone of the judgment of others and not, can my kids handle this? Are they going to be okay? Kids? I knew that they would be. I wouldn't have done something that I thought endangered them, and what I was absolutely afraid of was like somebody finding out that I left my kid and then being like, she must not love her kids. I'm better than, like, whatever. Like what? I don't know, I didn't really imagine what they'd say. It was just a fear of the judgment and then ultimately fear of like the. Worst. Fear of jail. That fear to jail, definitely. Because it didn't like nobody. It doesn't seem anymore like we put trust in people knowing what's good for themselves or their kids. And that maybe is different than what is good for you. Are your kids and being okay with that being different? You know. There's there's a difference between a choice and negligence. There's a difference. You know, you're not every choice somebody makes that best for their family is abuse. Like, you know, I go back to that one story I read that was heartbreaking about this woman who had to go work, and she left her 13 year old in the car, and her 13 year old died. And, you know, I go back to me sitting at 13 in my dad's car is he's up working for three hours waiting for him to complete. How did the 13 year old die? She was older than you would expect. And she was just sitting there waiting for her mom to get done with her shift, and she died. And it starts off with the car shut off automatically and she realize, and it got really hot and she fell asleep. Something like that. Yeah. You know, hopefully, maybe somebody in the comments knows and can link to the story, but, the bit that really stuck with me is, is when I would read comments on this story, all I feel when I see that story is just, this is a tragedy. Yeah. This isn't a crime. And other people, we're looking at this like this is a crime. And I'm like, what are you going to do? We don't live in Finland with their universal child care. We don't, you know, you don't have a choice. We don't have that. If you don't have money for child care, guess what? Your kid's coming with you. Or and and that should be fine. Like in certain work. That should be fine. I would sometimes go to work with my dad and back when he would let me, and I'd sit with my toys in the corner of his office. Yes. That's fine. And I met, I met your kids at your. At work. Yeah, exactly. That's you brought them in. And that's when I first met them and realized they were stars and use them in a in a video that I still. Think they are little stars. Things we ever did. But but like, these stories are tragedies. They're not crimes. And we like, push these all into the same bucket of crime. And it is what makes us feel this way. Yeah. Like, and I think, yeah, it comes back to trust. You're right. Yeah. And it's like the fact that, like, even talking about this, like, can you leave your kids alone or when can you leave your kids alone? The fact that that's a consideration that feels scandalous is kind of crazy to me. It's crazy. It's crazy. Well, we're going to leave you with that thought then, that it's a scandal. We're even talking about this, and you guys should all feel judged that you were worried enough to even listen.